Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 On 15 Feb 2002, Raghunata John wrote: > Ditto. I used the term to explain the quality of Ananta Rupa's care in > the other areas of his administration. He does excellent work as an > administrator etc because he loves what he does. The quality of his care > is in fact impressive and so leaves those who have seen his program > disarmed into recognizing what he is doing as a child molester. > Madhusudani dasi > Just to clarify; Ananta Rupa can hardly be classified as a lover. If he > is > having sex with those boys, he is a child molester . Consensual sex > between > two adult males is not the same as sex between an adult authority figure > > and a child. It's abuse, even if the child does not fight it. > Ys, The question is: are the children happy? What does it mean that "the child doesn't fight it". What would have happened to these kids if they were not taken care by Ananta Rupa's "loving care"? Do the orphans have a better choice practically? --Ak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 At 06:54 AM 2/18/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote: >What does it mean that "the child >doesn't fight it". Usually that they are too afraid. There are numerous reports of this from the Vrindavan gurukula as well as from the non-ISKCON child molestation and rape literatures. Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child "likes it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 I'm surprised this to even see this discussion. How someone can not know this much at this point is almost beyond my comprehention. We were 6 to 13 year old kids 10,000 miles away from our parents in third world country, in a village where we did what we were told, when they told it, or life became full of pain, starvation, beatings, work, no clothing, bedding etc. How can someone not know this already? India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net [india.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley, CA - USA) Monday, February 18, 2002 5:46 AM GBC Unmoderated; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) Re: Child molester At 06:54 AM 2/18/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote: >What does it mean that "the child >doesn't fight it". Usually that they are too afraid. There are numerous reports of this from the Vrindavan gurukula as well as from the non-ISKCON child molestation and rape literatures. Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child "likes it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 I have wondered about this as well. Is sexual molestation a fair price to pay in place of hunger, beatings and living on the streets in India in their severe climate. I finally realized that you must take a stand on the issue to demonstrate that there is never a justifiable reason or reasons to look the other way no matter if they be a big guru like Bhavananda or a seemingly erriplacable sumnaritan like Ananta Rupa. A good example is murder. Once you have crossed that line, it does not matter what else you have done whether it be a guru or taken care of 10,000 orphans. Child molestation is murder of a childs life in all their identity and prospects. As for the school, I think that it is far along enough that it would now continue without him. India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net [india.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) Monday, February 18, 2002 1:54 AM GBC Unmoderated; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) Child molester On 15 Feb 2002, Raghunata John wrote: > Ditto. I used the term to explain the quality of Ananta Rupa's care in > the other areas of his administration. He does excellent work as an > administrator etc because he loves what he does. The quality of his care > is in fact impressive and so leaves those who have seen his program > disarmed into recognizing what he is doing as a child molester. > Madhusudani dasi > Just to clarify; Ananta Rupa can hardly be classified as a lover. If he > is > having sex with those boys, he is a child molester . Consensual sex > between > two adult males is not the same as sex between an adult authority figure > > and a child. It's abuse, even if the child does not fight it. > Ys, The question is: are the children happy? What does it mean that "the child doesn't fight it". What would have happened to these kids if they were not taken care by Ananta Rupa's "loving care"? Do the orphans have a better choice practically? --Ak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 On 18 Feb 2002, Madhusudani Radha wrote: Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child "likes it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child. [---] It's a molester's dream set-up and an absolute hell for those poor orphans. I don’t think so, although it can be. The devotee who knows that molester was talking about "loving concern". I was surprised when he said that. But when a mother or a sister is raped in front of the child eyes or the child sees his father and brother tortured diabolically, it is much more horrible than a child who is abused "lovingly"; if this has any meaning for us, in the XXI century of the Western civilization. I doubt. I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to our privilege mind, but the children concern me. “My question is: are the children happy?” If any destruction of that vicious institution is prepared, it has to be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about that. What I know however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a hellish life when abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that they will not like the "living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that this caring devotees offer to the orphans? --Ak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 At 01:23 PM 2/18/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote: >I don't think so, although it can be. The devotee who knows that molester was >talking about "loving concern". I don't think Raghu meant "loving concern" seriously - at least not in the way that most of us define that term. Raghu, perhaps you can help clarify this? >it is much more horrible than a >child who is abused "lovingly"; I think that's a contradiction in terms. Abuse can not be done lovingly. It strikes me as almost even sicker for a child to be forced into be penetrated by someone who pretends that what they're engaging in is a loving relationship. For the child this is not "love"; it's humiliating, disgusting, scary and often very painful, especially if it's anal sex. Forced oral sex is no less humiliating or disgusting, particularly if it occurs to ejaculation. Just think about it for a moment, and I'm sure you will realize that this is about as far from "love" as you can get. Sorry to be so graphic, but this description is nothing compared to what those poor kids had (have?) to endure and it turns my stomach to think that it could be romanticized or justified just because these kids have such horrible prospects outside the orphanage too. Being abused and starving outside vs. being abused and fed inside, is not really the choice we should be contemplating. Abuse is abuse and it's wrong, wherever it happens. There is nothing that can justify it - however "loving" the abuser may seem. Now, where is this orphanage located and who is the ISKCON GBC there? Ys, Madhusudani dasi >if this has any meaning for us, in the XXI >century of the Western civilization. I doubt. > >I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to our >privilege mind, but the children concern me. "My question is: are the children >happy?" If any destruction of that vicious institution is prepared, it has to >be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about that. What I know >however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a hellish life when >abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that they will not like the >"living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that this caring devotees offer >to the orphans? --Ak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 I appreciate what you are trying to say, but what I have found having been party to these kinds of situations and considerations dozens of times is that such considerations only go to blur the intensity of action required to stop such abuse and clearly communicate the gravity of it. You can consider these pjoints after they are in court. raghu GBC.Unmoderated (AT) pamho (DOT) net [GBC.Unmoderated (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) Monday, February 18, 2002 8:23 AM GBC Unmoderated; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) Re: Child molester On 18 Feb 2002, Madhusudani Radha wrote: Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child "likes it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child. [---] It's a molester's dream set-up and an absolute hell for those poor orphans. I don't think so, although it can be. The devotee who knows that molester was talking about "loving concern". I was surprised when he said that. But when a mother or a sister is raped in front of the child eyes or the child sees his father and brother tortured diabolically, it is much more horrible than a child who is abused "lovingly"; if this has any meaning for us, in the XXI century of the Western civilization. I doubt. I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to our privilege mind, but the children concern me. "My question is: are the children happy?" If any destruction of that vicious institution is prepared, it has to be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about that. What I know however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a hellish life when abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that they will not like the "living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that this caring devotees offer to the orphans? --Ak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 On 18 Feb 2002, Madhusudani Radha wrote: > Sorry to be so graphic, but this description is nothing compared > to what those poor kids had (have?) I could make you graphics on what kids are experiencing in some countries, today, that would makes yours -lovers/abusers- palling. You certainly know that it existed societies to which such practices were part of life. But what I am talking about was never socially accepted. It is much more horrible. What I asked is where these orphans came from and what would have happened to them if these molesters did not take care of them? That was my question. I already told Raghu that I whish him good luck. I am retiring from this topic. Good work to you also. I believe that you are doing a great job by denouncing all these nonsense. We need devotees like you. Sincerely. Akhiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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