Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 On 16 May 2004, Bhakti Vikasa Swami wrote: > > there are many instances in ISKCON where first or non > > initiated devotees actually do perform deity worship even though this does > > not seem to conform to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. > > This has become accepted in ISKCON although it is clearly a compromise of > standards given by Srila Prabhupada. Ideally speaking the standard is - initiated have to perform arcana. However we have to choose the best among the available lot for any service. Like if no one is present Srila Prabhupada said it is ok for a woman during her monthly cycle perform arcana, but we must not stop seva. This is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong. Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Dasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 Dear Narasimha Kavaca Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP. Thank you for your reply. I am aware and understand fully well, what ever rules and regulations you and Gaura Kesava Prabhu are quoting. No where I have said, that we must condone these rules and regulations, for general circumstances. I am really surprised that, you are simply assuming things which I never said, and putting words into my mouth. It is obvious that when I say " We do choose the best among the available lot" for what ever criteria it may be, that there is a basic minimum qualification. Like today I was interviewing many candidates, for an engineer's post in our office. We gave a paper ad asking for minimum qualification, but I choose the best among the avalable candidates that applied for the job. This whole process took about 2 weeks time. Meanwhile, in the interim period, the functions of the engineer who left, were taken care of by assistant engineers. I am not advocating that we deliberately plan and allow any one with out any basic minimum qualification to be choosen for the vacant engineer's post. In unforseen circumstances, in times of emergency, I am referring to: I am asking at what level we draw the line for unforseen circumstances? 2nd initiation? If so, so be it. First initiation, we draw the line? so be it. All that I am asking is in unforseen circumstances, like we allow a twice initiated woman during her monthly cycle (only Gaudiya acaryas allow this) perform seva, similarly do Gaudiya acaryas allow for some relaxation when no qualified brahmana is around? For every rule there is an exception. But we must understand that even for exception there is a rule. What is that rule for these exceptional cases according to Guru, Sadhu and Shastra? Thank you for your valuable time. svalpamapi asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. Declare boldly Arjuna, my devotee never perishes. I pray for the mercy of that Supreme Lord Jagannatha, who allows even sabaras, the pig keepers to serve Him.--- Now, now don't assume that I am recommending we must in general allow all kinds of sabaras on to our altars. This is simply a prayer and realisation, that how merciful and supremely independent is our Lord. Hare Krishna, Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Dasa. - "Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS" <Nrsimha.Kavaca.IDS (AT) pamho (DOT) net> "Bhadra Govinda Dasa" <raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>; "Gregory Jay" <gregjay (AT) softhome (DOT) net> Cc: "Tattvavit (das) ACBSP (BBT)" <Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net> Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:09 PM Re: non-initiates performing arcana > Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu, > > Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Thank you for your letter. > > > In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are installed, > > say the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what > > ever reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the > > movement, Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first > > initiation devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. > > Until you send another brahmana there, or until we get the existing > > devoteees their second initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that > > time *in the interim period* for that week, do we allow the first > > initiated devotees or 16 rounders, to perform the seva (if they are > > willing to) or do we shut down the altar until some qualified brahmanas > > come there? > > If we study and follow the instructions given by Srila Prabhupada about the > installing and worshiping of deities you will understand that this > hypothetical situation you talk about just will not happen. > > Some quotes from Srila Prabhupada to substantiate my point: > > As far as your desire to have Sita Rama Deities, it is a good idea, but you > should wait for some time. First see that you have sufficient brahmanas who > are very well trained and qualified, then you can consider to install Sita, > Rama, Laksmana, and Hanuman. > > >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Brisakapi -- Nellore 7 January, 1976 > > No you should not install Gaura nitai deities if you do not have the > required Brahmins. Better wait. > > >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hrdayananda -- Vrindaban 7 December, 1975 > > Srila Prabhupada again and again instructed the leaders of the society to > only install deities if there were sufficient brahmanasa available so that > the worship would go on even if someone unfortunately left. > > He generally suggested there should be between 8 and 15 brahmanas before the > devotees could consider installing deities. > > > Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular > > situation, with out stopping seva? > > Then what do we do when we cannot find a first initiate to worship the > deities? Or what if we cannot find someone who is chanting sixteen rounds? > Eventually with the kind of rationale you are promoting we will employ > unqualified people to worship the deity. Sorry your ideas are just > unacceptable. As soon as the qualification to do the seva is lost it is no > longer seva, but idolatry. > > What we do choose to do is follow the instructions of the acaryas, not > arbitrarily or whimsically make our own process of devotional service. If we > are not following the system given by the acaryas there is little chance > that Krsna will accept our offerings. > > Another quote from Srila Prabhupada: > > Our Deity worship is not heathenism. If we keep Forms of the Lord without > worshipping the Deity under regulative principles, it will gradually turn > into idol worship, which is an offense. > > >>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Syamasundara -- Los Angeles 15 July, 1969 > > > This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the service. > > For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur out > > of hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful, that > > is the "best among the available lot" were allowed for the service. And > > it has to be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I > > This is an opinion and not what actually happened. I was closely involved in > the planning and execution of the installation and was given the service of > organizing the abhiseka and can tell you for certain that this was not the > consideration. The selection of who would do the abhiseka was made by the > GBC and they asked that only the Mayapur pujaris do the abhiseka in order > that it may logistically go smoothly and to avoid possible political issues > about whether or not matajis or gurukulis etc. could be involved. There was > more than 7,000 devotees in Mayapur for the installation and it was not > physically possible for all of them to participate directly in the bathing > in the alloted time. > > > would not dare claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more > > Neither would I, but to my great surprise, I was asked to do it by my > worshipable superiors. > > There were many highly qualified brahmanas and sannyasis present who did not > get the opportunity to bathe the Panca-tattva. I can only put it down to the > mercy of Mahaprabhu. > > Look forward to hearing from you soon. > > > Your servant, > Nrsimha Kavaca dasa > > Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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