non-initiates performing arcana to installed deities in ISKCON te

[Guest guest]

Dear Gaura Kesava Prabhu,

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

It was said on this thread, in ISKCON it has become a standard that non

initiates are performing arcana. (Look at the header). When I chip in saying,

that may be there are some practical problems, then you are coming back and

saying, there has never been a case of non initiates performing arcana in

ISKCON. Both the statements not by me. Either way you are trying to prove /

disporve your own stattement.

 

We are going no where, with strawman arguments. Let's call off our discussion.

 

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

-

Gregory Jay

Bhadra Govinda Dasa

Cc: Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS ; Tattvavit (das) ACBSP (BBT) ; India

(Continental Committee) Open (Forum)

Saturday, June 26, 2004 7:01 AM

non-initiates performing arcana to installed deities in ISKCON

temples

 

 

Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

 

On Jun 23, 2004, at 2:34 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

 

 

I am aware and understand fully well, what ever rules and regulations you

and Gaura Kesava Prabhu are quoting. No where I have said, that we must

condone these rules and regulations, for general circumstances.

 

 

Why rules and regulations should only be applicable in "general

circumstances"? Where does Sastra say anything about these rules ONLY applying

in "general circumstances" (whatever that means?)? You are the person who must

show by Sastra that there are exceptions, you are the person who must show what

the exceptions might be from Sastra, you are the person who continually says

that there are exceptions. But until now you have not given even ONE sastric

quote to support any of these speculations. If you have a quote then let's hear

it. I request a quote from any Sanskrit or Bengali source stating that those

without Pancaratric Diksha are qualified to perform Pancaratric Arcana under

any circumstances. If you do not have such a quote then please desist from

pushing this non-sastric agenda.

 

 

I am really

surprised that, you are simply assuming things which I never said, and

putting words into my mouth.

 

 

"Methinks he doth protest too much." (William Shakespeare) Why do you keep

belaboring this point? Just because you deny saying something, doesn't mean you

are not saying it. We have all your previous statements in writing. You are in

complete denial on this point. The subject of these emails is "non-initiates

performing arcana". "non-initiates performing arcana" is NOWHERE accepted in

Vaisnava scriptures. It is not accepted by any Vaisnava Acharyas. So just give

it up.

 

 

It is obvious that when I say " We do choose the best among the available

lot" for what ever criteria it may be, that there is a basic minimum

qualification.

 

 

Who says? You say! Who are you to say what the qualification is or is not?

When the Acharyas and Sastra say one thing, then who are you to say otherwise?

You quote your own words from your own email, "We do choose the best among the

available lot", as though they were Sastra. That's NOT proof. Please if you are

at all interested in discussion quote from authorities like Acharyas and

Sastra.

 

 

Like today I was interviewing many candidates, for an

engineer's post in our office. We gave a paper ad asking for minimum

qualification, but I choose the best among the avalable candidates that

applied for the job. This whole process took about 2 weeks time.

Meanwhile, in the interim period, the functions of the engineer who left,

were taken care of by assistant engineers. I am not advocating that we

deliberately plan and allow any one with out any basic minimum

qualification

to be choosen for the vacant engineer's post.

 

 

I'm sure that you are a very qualified engineer. However engineering is NOT

Pancaratric Arcana. You have absolutely NO right to make statements about

engineering qualifications and think that the same applies to Pancaratric

Arcana. There may be a general tendency in this world to accept a person less

qualified for a job temporarily when no one fully qualified is available.

However there are certainly minumium qualifications. The minimum qualification

set by the Sastra and Acharyas is Pancaratric Vaisnava Diksha.

 

Even if we accept your engineering example. You have said yourself that you

had the "ASSISTANT engineers" do the job temporarily. But your argument for

arcana is NOT to have the "ASSISTANT pujaris" do the job, it is to have NON

pujaris do the job. So unless you are willing to have people who are NOT

engineers do your engineering job please don't ask anyone who is NOT a pujari

to do puja. The minimum qualification to be a pujari (a person who offers

Pancaratric puja) is to be initiated into the Pancaratric Mantras.

 

Admittedly not all persons with Pancaratric Diksha know how to use the

mantras they have received through Diksha in the puja or some of the other

practical tasks involved in the puja. However they do have the basic

qualifications and can be instructed on the rest of the details. Whereas how

can I instruct a NON initiate to "Chant the Gopal mantra ten times after

touching the feet of the Lord". He/she will not understand what I am talking

about. Or if I say "Offer the item with the mantra for the item plus the mula

mantra for the particular deity" Will anyone who is not a pujari understand? At

least I am free to explain the mantras and procedures to those who are NOT

regular pujaris but who ARE initiated. Do you suggest that I explain these

mantras to those who are NOT initiated? Mantras which they should get from

their Diksha Gurus at the time of Pancaratric Initiation. Would that not make

me their Diksha Guru. What are you thinking?

 

I think what you are suggesting is that we allow people to do puja without

using any of the secret mantras. Is that what you are saying? Yet Srila

Prabhupada instituted the system of Deity Worship in ISKCON temples and said

that it should not be changed. It includes certain mantras which are not

divulged except at Pancaratric initiation. Even if we go against His Divine

Graces instructions and allow this, the very basis of arcana is that the

devotee thinks that he/she is offering everything through his/her Spiritual

Master to the Lord. This has the be the basic mentality. If however one DOES

NOT HAVE a Spiritual Master or has not been accepted by one through the process

of Pancaratric Diksha where the Guru authorizes the disciple to perform

Pancaratric puja, then again how can one perform Pancaratric puja?

 

 

In unforseen circumstances, in times of emergency, I am referring to:

 

I am asking at what level we draw the line for unforseen circumstances? 2nd

initiation?

 

 

That's right. We are not drawing the line, Srila Prabhupada, the Acharyas and

the Sastra have already drawn the line. We have NO qualifications to draw any

new line, or lower the bar, or change that in any way.

 

 

If so, so be it.

 

 

Acceptance.

 

 

First initiation, we draw the line? so be

it.

 

 

Oh, Oh, again denial.

 

 

All that I am asking is in unforseen circumstances, like we allow a

twice initiated woman during her monthly cycle (only Gaudiya acaryas allow

this) perform seva, similarly do Gaudiya acaryas allow for some relaxation

when no qualified brahmana is around?

 

 

The circumstance that you have described is spoken of by Srila Prabhupada in

only one place. And the rest of the quote which you have NOT given is that

after he said that, he also said "BUT IT IS BETTER NOT TO DO." So even this

should be avoided. It is simple to avoid. Especially in ISKCON temples as I

also know of NO ISKCON Temples run completely by Women. There is no ISKCON

Temple with Deities where the SOLE 2nd INITIATED DEVOTEE is a Woman.

 

Also please note that you have indicated that ALL Gaudiya Acharyas accept

this compromise. I do not believe this to be the case. It seems to be something

which only Srila Prabhupada gave. If we want to fully understand the case in

point we should research the actual situation which he (Srila Prabhupada) was

referring to in his letter. Do not take things out of context.

 

Also it is very common nowadays to quote a letter and think that it applies

generally to all situations. Srila Prabhupada also made some remarks in this

regard. He wrote to Balai dasi and said in one famous letter. Don't quote my

letters. Those instructions are meant for certain places, times, persons and

circumstances. And concerning the famous line "Prabhupada Said", he said "They

say I said, but I never said." So in my humble opinion although lectures, room

conversations and letters are certainly instructions from Srila Prabhupada, his

main and general instructions should be understood from his books. If we get

instructions from other sources than the books then we must also show that they

are applicable to the time, place and circumstance. And we must understand them

in the context in which they were written.

 

 

For every rule there is an exception.

 

 

Please quote me the Sanskrit for this. Otherwise this is a bogus statement

not approved by Sastra.

 

 

But we must understand that even for

exception there is a rule.

 

 

Again no quote from Sastra. Speculation and word jugglery. First, every rule

has an exception then every exception has a further rule? What nonsense! This

is called "Catch 22".

 

 

What is that rule for these exceptional cases

according to Guru, Sadhu and Shastra?

 

 

I already told you what should be done. A person without Pancaratric Vaisnava

Diksha should worship the supreme Lord by the chanting of the Holy Name

(Bhagavata Vidhi NOT Pancaratric Vidhi) for which there is NO qualification.

 

 

Thank you for your valuable time.

 

 

If you really want to thank us, then please stop preaching anything without

the backing of Sastra.

 

 

svalpamapi asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat.

 

Declare boldly Arjuna, my devotee never perishes.

 

 

Since you have quoted from the Gita, I will too.

 

yah sastra vidhim utsrjya vartate kama karatah

NA sa siddhim avapnoti NA sukham NA param gatim

 

"He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims

attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination." (BG

16.23)

 

tasmac chastram pramanyam te karyakarya vyavasthitau

jnatva sastra vidhanoktam karma kartum iharhasi

 

"One should therefore understand what is duty and what is not duty by the

regulations of the scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations, one should

act so that he may gradually be elevated." (BG 16.24)

 

sruti smrti puranadi pancaratra vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate

 

bhaktir aikantikiveyamvicarat pratiyate

vastu tastu tatha naiva yadasastriyateksyate

 

It is said in Brahma Yamala that:

 

"Overzealous practice of Bhakti with disregard of the injunctions of the

Sruti, Smrti, Puranas and Pancaratras, etc. is simply a disturbance in society.

Actually such Bhakti only appears to be overzealous, but truly speaking, it is

NOT Bhakti at all, and consequently there is no overzealousness in it, because

all this is found to be antagonistic to all scriptural injunctions. (Bhakti

Rasamrta Sindu 2.101-2 by Rupa Goswami)

 

sruti smrtih mamaivajna

yasyamullanghya vartate

ajnacchedi mama dohi

mad bhakto'pi NA vaisnavah

 

"The Sruti and the Smriti texts convey my commands. Whoever violates them,

that is, goes against the scriptural dictates, commits treason. Even if he say

that he is my devotee he is by NO means a Vaisnava."

 

 

I pray for the mercy of that Supreme Lord Jagannatha, who allows even

sabaras, the pig keepers to serve Him.--- Now, now don't assume that I am

recommending we must in general allow all kinds of sabaras on to our

altars.

This is simply a prayer and realisation, that how merciful and supremely

independent is our Lord.

 

 

Again you are showing your ignorance. The worship of Lord Jagannath in Puri

is NOT PANCARATRIC. It is performed according to the Pancopasana system

instituted by Sripad Sankaracarya. All the puja is perfomed according to Smarta

principles. The particular case involving the Sabaras however is another Puri

tradition involving the confinement and restoration period between Snana and

Ratha Yatras only. You should also note that even in this situation the Sabaras

DO NOT WORSHIP LORD JAGANNATH, they are considered His kinsmen. All they do is

offer Him juices and herbs that represent medicine for His "alleged" cold. At

the time of repainting or remaking of the bodies of the "Daru/Wooden"Brahman as

Jagannath is termed it is said that the Lord is recovering from sickness

brought on by cold water bath (ie Snanayatra). Immediately after the bath the

deities are dressed in Hati Vesha and worshiped as Ganesha (another Smarta

ritual). Then they are handed over to the care of the Sabaras (descendants of

tribals) who are considered by local tradition (NOT SASTRA) to be the original

kin fold of Nila Madhava (the name of the utsava murti in the temple who is

identified with Lord Jagannatha). Normally annually there is only repainting,

however every 12 years the Deities bodies are changed in a ceremony called Nava

Kalevara. At this time the oldest priest in the temple (with gloves on his

hands and blindfolded) transfers the "Brahman" from each of the old deities to

each of the new deities. This "Brahman" is kept within a cavity in the chest of

each deity. Since this is a secret ritual it is unclear exactly what the

"Brahman" is. It is speculated by some to be salagramas, by others to be pieces

of the original "Daru/Wood", and yet by others as the corporal remains of

Krsna, Subhadra and Balarama. All of this is OBVIOUSLY NOT PANCARATRIC VAISNAVA

ARCANA.

 

Please contrast this with the Pancaratric method of Jirna Pratistha performed

by Vaisnavas. When the deity needs repair or repainting in the Pancaratric

system (according to Pancaratric Sastra) the Lord is invited to be present in

either the utsava deity or a kumbha/pot temporarily while the appropriate

repairs, etc are performed. Then again the Lord is requested to accept worship

through the newly painted or made or restored deity. This is a type of

re-installation. At NO time is the worship stopped. And at NO time is the

worship done by those without proper Pancaratric Diksha.

 

ys

 

Gaura Keshava dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Badra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

 

On Jun 27, 2004, at 4:50 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

 

> It was said on this thread, in ISKCON it has  become a standard that

> non initiates are performing arcana.

 

This was not said by me. It may be the case. All I have said is that it

is unsastric and also unnecessary.

 

> When I chip in saying, that may be there are some practical problems,

> then you are coming back and saying, there has never been a case of

> non initiates performing arcana in ISKCON. 

 

NO, actually what I did say was that there doesn't seem to be a

circumstance where this needs to occur. If it occurs or not, I don't

know. If it does then it is an offense and should be stopped.

 

> Both the statements not by me.  Either way you are trying to  prove /

> disporve your own stattement.

 

Again word jugglery from you.

 

>  We are going no where, with strawman arguments.

 

A strawman argument is weak or has no substance. Yes, I agree that your

arguments have no substance. Because you refuse to quote sastra (at

least anything you do quote is irrelevant to the topic).

 

> Let's call off our discussion.

 

I agree. It's useless to discuss these matters without reference to

sastra.

 

ys

 

Gaura Keshava dasa