Nothing to do with Visnu Sahasranama

[Guest guest]

> > Not so. There is for instance the example of the jiva issue. There was

> > no way to resolve it to everyone's satisfaction except to accept that

> > two conclusions were stressed differently by different acharyas. So

> > Prabhupada stressed one the most, so we in ISKCON accept that.

 

> You are ABSOLUTELY NOT CORRECT that Srila Prabhupada ONLY stressed one

> side of this issue.

 

Try again. That's not what I said.

 

>It is actually a very clear issue but I do admit

> that he did give some statements both ways. Certainly it's very easy to

> reconcile if you want to. However if you are ignorant of your

> sampradayas siddhanta on this and also on ALL of Srila Prabhupada's

> statements then you certainly could have a problem. Many devotees do,

> but that is due to a lack of knowledge of ALL Srila Prabhupada's

> statements and also those of the Previous Acharyas.

 

I don't have a problem with the jiva issue. You seem to be the one who can't

reconcile the seemingly contradictory statements of our acharyas.

 

> > First of all, I don't accept that Srila Prabhupada said anything

> > FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT from the previous acharyas,

>

> But above you did, please make up your mind.

 

But I don't see the statements to be fundamentally different. Mature

devotees in ISKCON--of whom Drutakarma prabhu is the latest--have already

explained how to reconcile the two statements.

 

>There cannot be two

> answers to some questions (like the jiva issue, either we fell or we

> did not, either we were in rasa with Lord Krsna before coming here or

> not.

 

Says who? Just see. You are the one who harps on about reconciling the

statements of Srila Prabhupada with the previous ahcaryas, yet you can't

even reconcile the jiva issue in your own mind.

 

>There can only be one answer accepted by one sampradaya. And there

> is only one answer ultimately given by Srila Prabhupada and it is the

> same as that of the previous Acharyas of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya

> Sampradaya.)

 

In that case Srila Prabhupada's ultimate answer is indisputably and

unequivocally that the jiva was originally with Krishna in the spiritual

world.

 

On June 27, 1974, in Melbourne, a devotee attending Srila Prabhupada's

Bhagavad-gita lecture asked Srila Prabhupada to resolve an apparent

contradiction. In his answer, Srila Prabhupada offers confidential

information about the falldown of the soul from Krsna's association.

 

Devotee: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krsna did not want us to

come to this material world. If Krsna did not want us to come, why are we

here?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You forced Krsna to allow you to come. Just like

sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, "My dear son, do not do

this. Do not go there." But he insists. "Oh, I must go. I must go.All

right, you go at your risk. That's all. And you suffer. What can be done?'

Because you are son of God-God has got independence, full independence,

almighty- therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have

got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little

independence. If you persist that "I must go and enjoy independently," so

God says, "All right, you can go." This is the position. You have to take

sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come

and enjoy."

 

In Los Angeles, on December 19, 1968, a devotee attending a Bhagavad-gita

lecture once more placed the classic apparent contradiction before Srila

Prabhupada for resolution.

 

Devotee: It is said that once you achieve the Godhead, once you go back to

Krsna, that you don't fall down. But it is also said that we come from there

originally. If we came from there, how did we fall if we were already there?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, just like this example that personalities like Brahma and

Siva, they also sometimes become victims of maya. So our, I mean to say,

potency of falling down is always there, potency. And because we are part

and parcel of God and because we are now in the material world, it is to be

understood that we have fallen down. But you cannot trace out the history

when you have fallen down. That is impossible. But our position is marginal.

At any moment, we can fall down. That tendency is there. Therefore we are

called marginal. But one...Just like it is very simple to understand.

Everyone is prone to fall diseased. Is it not? Now when you are diseased,

there is no necessity of finding out the history when you became diseased.

You are diseased, make your treatment, that's all. Similarly, we are in the

material condition of life. Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are

cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling

down, again becoming diseased. Not that once you become cured, there is no

chance of becoming diseased again.

 

> > second of all, even if he did, which he didn't, as members of ISKCON,

> > we are to follow Srila Prabhupada.

>

> This is not only offensive but ABSOLUTE FANATICISM.

 

"Fanaticism" and "offensive" to follow Srila Prabhupada? Go figure.

 

<snip>

 

>And what pray tell is Srila Prabhupada's version if it is not the same

>his letters, but his books, says "It is a fact that no one falls from a

>Vaikuntha planet". That is very clear. Now if you come up with a quote

>that says that we fell from the Spiritual Sky that is a different

>matter. Vaikuntha planet and Spiritual Sky are two different things.

>There is not one quote in Srila Prabhupada's books that says that we

>were engaged in active rasa with Lord Krsna prior to entering this

>material world. Not one. People who quote a letter where Srila

>Prabhupada likens our coming to the descent of Jaya and Vijaya should

>note that this example is only very superficially correct. We are NOT

>at all like Jaya and Vijaya (please read the story of their descent in

>the Bhagavatam including the purports if you don't understand this

>issue, it will be very clear once you read it). Jaya and Vijaya came

>here on the order of the Lord as part of the Lord's lila, we are NOT

>nitya siddha pure devotee eternal servants of the Lord come here for

>some lila. Simple as that.

 

I don't know where you get your ideas from, but they are certainly not from

Srila Prabhupada's teachings. I have attached The Origin of the Jiva by

Drutakarma Dasa, which is an extensive research based on the Srimad

Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada, and our previous acharyas. The conclusion

therein is that we fell from Krishna's lila. If you haven't reached that

conclusion you are obviously not very well-versed either in Srila

Prabhupada's teachings or in the teachings of the previous acharyas.

 

I am not going to discuss endlessly with you about this issue since firstly

you don't know what you are talking about, and secondly the research has

already been done by your senior godbrothers who are obviously much more

enlightened on this topic than you are. Below I have posted the list of

contents from Drutakarma's treatise, which in and of itself is already

enough to defeat your unfounded assertions. Why don't you go through it, and

if you still have any doubts on the subject read the whole treatise. If you

are not a complete fanatic, that should settle the issue once and for all in

your mind.

 

And lastly, if you think you can steam roll me into accepting your

apa-siddhantic speculations on the pretext of being my senior then you are

sorely mistaken. I take my clues from Srila Prabhupada and his dedicated

followers. One cannot write rantingly long emails demanding that everyone

respect him just because he took initiation from Srila Prabhupada. Respect

is commanded, not demanded. So far you have done nothing about the former,

but repetitively asserted the latter.

 

 

The Origin of the Jiva

 

by Drutakarma Dasa

 

namo om visnu padaya krsna-presthaya bhutale

srimate bhaktivedanta svaminn iti namine

namas te sarasvate deve gaura-vani-pracarine

nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine

 

"Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not

differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the

Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which

religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles

is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated self-realized person.

Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive

path the mahajanas advocate."

 

Mahabharata, Vana Parva 313.117

 

"The insignificant author of this book prays that if I am wrong in my

presentations of this matter, may the merciful Lord Krsna, who is very dear

to the residents of Gokula, please forgive me."

 

Jiva Goswami, Sri Krsna-sandarbha 181.2

 

9701 Venice Blvd. #5, Los Angeles, CA 90034

Phone: 310-837-5283, Fax 310-837-1056

drutakarma.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

June 20, 2000

 

QUICK PATH

 

For those pressed for time, I would suggest reading: 1. Introduction, 2.

Teachings of Srila Prabhupada, up to and including section 2.4.2, the

introductory paragraphs of section 4.5, section 4.5.5.1, and the general

conclusion at the very end. In between one will find many selections from

the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, Srila Jiva Goswami, and Srimad-Bhagavatam. The

headlines give an indication of the subject matter. One can simply skim

these, picking out those of interest.

 

CONTENTS

 

1. INTRODUCTION

1.1 The questions

1.2 The answers

1.3 How should we arrive at an answer?

 

2. TEACHINGS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA

2.1 Has Srila Prabhupada already answered the question of the origin of the

jiva?

2.2 A proposed solution to the controversy

2.3 The strongest evidence: Srila Prabhupada's direct Resolution of a

controversy in ISKCON

2.3.1 "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila"

2.4 Srila Prabhupada's direct answers to direct questions

 

2.4.1 Introduction

2.4.2 "Actually he has not fallen"

2.4.3 "So actually we are always in the spiritual world"

2.4.4 "In this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming

down"

2.4.5 "We may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment"

2.4.6 "The soul may fall down from any position"

2.4.7 "If someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsna-loka, does he

ever fall down?"

2.4.8 "We have got the independence to give up His company"

2.4.9 "Can he still fall?"

2.4.10 "If we are originally in the spiritual world..."

2.4.11 "As eternal servitors of Krsna-our constitutional position-we fall

down when..."

2.4.12 "You are not eternally conditioned"

2.4.13 "Marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world"

2.4.14 "Not from the impersonal brahman"

2.4.15 "There is possibility, but he does not come"

2.4.16 "Potency of falling down is always there"

2.4. 17 "If the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice"

2.4.18 "Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go."

2.4.19 "You forced Krsna to allow you to come"

2.4.20 "We should remain with Krsna in the spiritual world"

2.4.21 "Our endeavor should be how to get our again original spiritual body"

2.4.22 "Because we are small, minute fragments, sometimes we fall down"

2.4.23 "If he desires, he can come again"

2.4.24 "If we were originally in the spiritual world, why don't we remember

that?"

2.4.25 "Then again his liberated life begins"

2.4.26 "We are playing with the big fire very nice, but there is chance of

falling down"

2.4.27 "When he misuses independence he falls"

2.4.28 "When the living being imitates the Supreme Personality of Godhead,

then he falls down"

 

2.5 FURTHER CONCLUSIVE STATEMENTS

 

2.5.1 "He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet"

2.5.2 "Down from Vaikuntha"

2.5.3 "Every living entity is originally a devotee of Krsna"

2.5.4 "Just try to revive your lost relationship with God, or Krsna"

2.5.5 "To revive our old relationship with God"

2.5.6 "Fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna and he has taken

the service of maya"

2.5.7 "Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated"

2.5.8 "Just to try to revive your original consciousness"

2.5.9 "You shall come back again to Me"

2.5.10 "Every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance

of falling down"

2.5.11 "We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna

consciousness"

2.5.12 "We have given up the company of Krsna"

2.5.13 "I have given up service of Krsna"

2.5.14 "He falls down from his real engagement in the service of the Lord"

2.5.15 "To enjoy independently, without Krsna"

2.5.16 "Even if he is elevated to a Vaikuntha planet, he falls down"

2.5.17 "Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down"

2.5.18 "They cannot remain in Vaikuntha world"

2.5.19 "We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya"

2.5.20 "All spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha"

2.5.21 "Revive his original state of loving service"

2.5.22 "Leaving His place, I have come to this material world"

2.5.23 "The servants who have rebelled against Krsna"

2.5.24 "We shall revive our original spiritual body"

2.5.25 "He revives his spiritual body"

2.5.26 "He has forgotten his relationship with Krsna"

2.5.27 "We will be reinstated in our original constitutional position"

2.5.28 "If we revive our original intimate relationship with Krsna"

2.5.29 "When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord's service"

2.5.30 "There is only a material world for those who want to imitate the

Lord"

2.5.31 "The rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living

being and the spiritual whole"

2.5.32 "The original position is one of rendering service"

2.5.33 "Return them to the normal stage of engaging the senses in the

service of the Lord"

2.5.34 "Separated from the Supreme Lord"

2.5.35 "He should be restored to his pure identity"

2.5.36 "The omnipotent Lord displays his pleasure potency as the living

entities"

2.5.37 "In our original relationship with the Supreme Lord there is real

love"

2.5.38 "It is originally a part and parcel of the pleasure potency"

2.5.39 "The living entity again becomes reinstated in his original position"

2.6 CONCLUSION

 

3. EVIDENCE FROM SRIMAD-BHAGAVATAM

 

3.1 INTRODUCTION

 

3.2 FOURTH CANTO: THE BRAHMANA AND QUEEN VIDARBHI

 

3.2.1 "In the past you had a very intimate friend"

3.2.2 "Even while in that position, the Lord remains with him as the

Supersoul, his intimate friend"

3.2.3 "We are also associated with Krsna, as Paramatma within the heart"

3.2.4 "You gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this

material world"

3.2.5 "We are still far away from our original home"

3.2.6 "The person I have described as unknown is the Supreme Personality of

Godhead"

3.2.7 "The living entity falls down from the service of the Lord"

3.2.8 "Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic"

3.2.9 "You have forgotten your spiritual life"

3.2.10 "He regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because

of his material attraction"

3.2.11 "When he forgets his supreme master, the Personality of Godhead"

3.2.12 "Not being interested in their real home, they are illusioned and

search after other homes"

3.2.13 Conclusiveness of the Fourth Canto Evidence

3.3 SECOND CANTO: LORD BRAHMA

3.3.1 "The eternally transcendental living entity"

3.4 SECOND CANTO: SUKADEVA GOSWAMI

3.4.1 "Spiritual and original bodies"

3.5 THIRD CANTO: LORD KAPILA

3.5.1 "Conditional life is due to his forgetfulness of his relationship with

the Supreme Personality of Godhead"

3.5.2 "He is forced to act in that way due to his offense in his eternal

relationship with Krsna"

3.5.3 "I am separated from the Supreme Lord"

3.6 FOURTH CANTO: MAHARAJA PRTHU

3.6.1 "The forgetful living entity gradually remembers his eternal

relationship with You"

3.7 SIXTH CANTO: VRTRASURA

3.7.1 "Will I again be able to be a servant of Your eternal servants?"

3.8 SIXTH CANTO: SUPREME LORD'S TEACHINGS TO CITRAKETU

3.8.1 "When a living entity, thinking himself different from Me, forgets his

spiritual identity"

3.9 SEVENTH CANTO: PRAHLAD MAHARAJA

3.9.1 "You are my eternal master"

3.10 EIGHTH CANTO: KING SATYAVRATA

3.10.1 "One regains his original identity"

3.10.2 "The intelligent person receiving such knowledge is quickly situated

in his original constitutional position"

3.11 TENTH CANTO: THE SAGES AT KURUKSETRA

3.11.1 "Such a person loses his memory and cannot know You"

3.12 ELEVENTH CANTO: REVERSAL OF POSITION

3.12.1 "Instead of being the eternal servant of Krsna, he becomes Krsna's

competitor"

3.13 ELEVENTH CANTO: CAMASA RSI

3.13.1 "If we do not serve the Supreme, then we fall down from our specified

place"

3.14 ELEVENTH CANTO: PINGALA THE PROSTITUTE

3.14.1 "He falls into the dark well of material existence"

3.15 ELEVENTH CANTO: LORD KRSNA

3.15.1 "The spirit soul returns to its original position of serving Me in

the spiritual world"

3.15.2 "He regains his ability to see Me, the Absolute Truth, in My subtle

spiritual form"

3.16 TWELFTH CANTO: SUKADEVA GOSWAMI

3.16.1 "Material false ego obstructs the individual soul from realizing the

Absolute Truth"

3.16.2 "He regains his original spiritual awareness"

3.16.3 "When the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within

resumes his spiritual identity"

3.17 WHAT ABOUT JAYA AND VIJAYA?

3.17.1 "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on

the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya"

3.18 CONCLUSION

 

4. STATEMENTS OF THE PREVIOUS ACARYAS

4.1 INTRODUCTION

4.2 TEACHINGS OF BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA

4.2.1 "When they forget their natural function as Krsna's servitors"

4.2.2 "The jiva, having forgotten his eternal relation with Krsna, has

fallen into the sea of Samsara"

4.2.3 "The jiva has forgotten that he is the eternal servitor of Krsna"

4.2.4 "Chit body of Jiva which was existent prior to its contact with

matter"

4.2.5 "I am in essence, the eternal servant of Krsna"

4.2.6 "Jiva takes recourse to chit i.e. transcendental everlasting time in

Vaikuntha"

4.2.7 "Forgetfulness of his essential swarup"

4.2.8 "Jiva's aversion to Krsna"

4.2.9 "That rasa which taking to chit-swarup was pure bhava before has been

perverted by its impure reflection"

4.2.10 "When pure rati falls down in this mundane world, it mixes up with

matter and becomes perverted"

4.2.11 "Nature that springs up with the formation of a thing is eternal and

remains latent though it is perverted or changed"

4.2.12 "When he forgets Krsna he is averse to serve Krsna"

4.2.13 "When he forgets this relationship he is overwhelmed by the influence

of Maya"

4.2.14 "The Jiva is eternal and ever-existing, and his function (dharma) in

the form of love for Sri Krsna is also eternal"

4.2.15 "Forgetfulness of the reality that 'I am Krsna's eternal servant'"

4.2.16 "The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the

Jiva's loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krsna"

4.2.17 "So long as the Jiva continues pure, he cherishes his function as his

own"

4.2.18 "Turned away from Krsna and as such, became punishable"

4.3 TEACHINGS OF BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA

4.3.1 "Jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to

the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship"

4.3.2 "When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha-sakti) forget

the service of Krsna, they are confined in the mundane prison house"

4.3.3. "Enjoy, cease to enjoy and go back to his original position"

4.3.4 "When we show our diffidence to serve the Absolute"

4.3.5 "We want to go back to our eternal Abode"

4.3.6 "Liberation is nothing but going back to the original position, that

is offering our services to the Eternal Being"

4.3.7 "We can go back to the higher Rasa'

4.3.8 "The eternal friend servitor will regain his position as such"

4.3.9 "It is the jivas who are the attendants in His sports"

4.3.10 "Whenever he chooses deliberately not to serve the Absolute he

thereby ipso facto looses this natural or free state"

4.3.11 "It is not good to be enticed to stay here for a long time,

forgetting our original abode"

4.3.12 "When we want to deprive our Lord"

4.3.13 "The members of this potency are apt to be forgetful of their eternal

situation"

4.3.14 "His original function of remembering his own eternal exploits"

4.3.15 "The individual souls serve Shri Krsna as constituents of Shri

Radhika"

4.3.16 "The connection of jiva with Shiva and mahamaya . . . is established

only when he is disassociated from the service of Shri Radha-Krsna"

4.4 TEACHINGS OF THE MADHVA SAMPRADAYA

4.5. TEACHINGS OF JIVA GOSWAMI

4.5.1 SRI BHAGAVAT-SANDARBHA

4.5.1.1 No one falls from Vaikuntha?

4.5.1.2 "Regaining your natural position"

4.5.1.3 "The pure spirit souls, who are His marginal potencies"

4.5.1.4 "The individual soul becomes bereft of his natural spiritual

opulences"

4.5.1.5 "One's own home, where the Supreme Personality of Godhead lives"

4.5.1.6 "The fault of ignorance, which makes the living entity forget the

Supreme Personality of Godhead"

4.5.1.7 "The material ignorance potency makes the conditioned souls in the

material world forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead"

4.5.2 SRI PARAMATMA-SANDARBHA

4.5.2.1 "By nature pure"

4.5.2.2"The individual soul . . . is, in his original spiritual nature, a

servant of Lord Hari"

4.5.2.3 "The ignorance that covers their true knowledge"

4.5.2.4 "The individual soul becomes bereft of his natural spiritual

opulences"

4.5.2.6 "The pure soul enters the material world"

4.5.2.7 "In his original constitutional position"

4.5.2.8 "In his original spiritual nature he is a knower, a doer, and an

enjoyer"

4.5.2.9 "His conception of life is reversed"

4.5.2.10 "The soul's natural spiritual knowledge"

4.5.2.11 "When the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within

resumes his spiritual identity"

4.5.2.12 "He regains his original spiritual awareness"

4.5.2.13 "He loses all of his spiritual qualities"

4.5.2.14 "The conditioned soul has forgotten his true identity"

4.5.2.15 "The maya potency, which covers the real forms of the individual

spirit souls"

4.5.3 SRI TATTVA-SANDARBHA

4.5.4 SRI BHAKTI-SANDARBHA

4.5.4.1 "Because the living entity has turned away from the Supreme Lord,

the material energy makes him forget and thus his own original spiritual

form is no longer manifested"

4.5.4.2 "Originally pure"

4.5.4.3 "He regains his ability to see Me"

4.5.4.4 "Returns to its original position of serving Me in the spiritual

world"

4.5.4.5 "Engagement in pure devotional service is the natural position of

all living entities"

4.5.4.6 "The individual soul's original nature is to be a servant of the

Supreme Lord"

4.5.4.7 "When the spirit souls . . . become averse to the Lord"

 

5. GENERAL CONCLUSION

[Guest guest]

To understand the jiva issue just the statement "Go back home back to

Godhead" which Srila Prabhupada repeatedly said is sufficient enough proof.

 

Other wise if we are going there for the first time then he would have said

"Go to godhead", and would not have used the words "back home back to

Godhead".

 

Am I right?

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.