No EVIDENCE

[Guest guest]

Dear Sthita-dhi-muni Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories

to Srila Prabhupada.

 

> > we are discussing the length of time acaryas can remain current, and

> > that

> can be even millions of years.

> Sure, like Lord Brahma, Narada Muni and Vyasadeva. They don't have the

> same physical limitations as experienced in human life.

 

Then you accept that it is not against sastra for a current link to remain

current for long periods. At least that is a baby step in the right

direction.

 

> Beyond that, a

> siksa relationship is not bound by physical presence.

 

Why do you think only siksa relationship is not bound? You are just making

it up as you go along. On the absolute platform there is no difference

between siksa and diksa, both entail transmission of knowledge which does

not require physical presence. Do I really need to post all those quotes

saying how physical presence is not important within guru disciple

relationships, surely not a fifth time?

 

> > Physical presence of

> > guru is seperate issue, that we have proven is irrelevant to

> > transmission of

> knowledge which is definition of diksa.

>

> Proven to yourself, maybe.

 

Oh dear, looks like we do. I have put in a few extra ones too.

 

Physical presence is immaterial. Presence of the transcendental sound

received from the Spiritual Master should be the guidance of life. That will

make our spiritual life successful. If you feel very strongly about my

absence you may place my pictures on my sitting places and this will be

source of inspiration for you.

(Letter to Brahmananda and other students, 19/1/67)

 

But always remember that I am always with you. As you are always thinking of

me, I am always thinking of you also. Although physically we are not

together, we are not separated spiritually. So we should be concerned only

with this spiritual connection.

(Letter to Gaurasundara, 13/11/69)

 

So we should associate by vibration, and not by the physical presence. That

is real association.

(Lectures SB, 68/08/18)

 

There are two conceptions, the physical conception and the vibrational

conception. The physical conception is temporary. The vibrational conception

is eternal.[...] When we feel separation from Krsna or the Spirirual Master,

we should just try to remember their words or instructions, and we will no

longer feel that separation. Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual

Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is

real association.

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness,(BBT 1973), Page 57)

 

Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarsavati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the

last day of December 1936, I still consider his Divine Grace to be always

present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association -

by vani and by vapuh. Vani means words and vapuh means physical presence.

Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but Vani

continues to exist eternally. Therefore, one must take advantage of the

Vani, not the physical presence.

(CC, Antya 5 Conclusion)

 

Therefore we should take advantage of the Vani, not the physical presence.

(Letter to Suci Devi Dasi, 4/11/75)

 

I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or not physically

present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja.

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

It is sometimes misunderstood that if one has to associate with persons

engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic

problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to

associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by

understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.

(SB 3:31:48)

 

I am always with you. Never mind if I am physically absent.

(Letter to Jayananda, 16/9/67)

 

Paramananda: We're always feeling your presence very strongly, Srila

Prabhupada, simply by your teachings and your instructions. We're always

meditating on your instructions.

Srila Prabhupada: Thank you. That is the real presence. Physical presence is

not important.

(Room Conversation, Vrndavana, 6/10/77)

 

You write that you have desire to avail of my association again, but why do

you forget that you are always in association with me? When you are helping

my missionary activities I am always thinking of you, and you are always

thinking of me . That is real association. Just like I am always thinking of

my Guru Maharaja at every moment, although he is not physically present, and

because I am trying to serve him to my best capacity, I am sure he is

helping me by his spiritual blessings. So there are two kinds of

association: physical and preceptorial. Physical association is not so

important as preceptorial association.

(Letter to Govinda Dasi, 18/8/69)

 

As far as my blessing is concerned, it does not require my physical

presence. If you are chanting Hare Krsna there, and following my

instructions, reading the books, taking only Krsna prasadam etc., then there

is no question of your not receiving the blessings of Lord Caitanya, whose

mission I am humbly trying to push on.

(Letter to Bala Krsna, 30/6/74)

 

'Anyone who has developed unflinching faith in the Lord and the Spiritual

Master can understand the revealed scripture unfolding before him'. So

continue your present aptitude and you will be successful in your spiritual

progress. I am sure that even if I am not physically present before you,

still you will be able to execute all spiritual duties in the matter of

Krsna Consciousness, if you follow the above principles.

(Letter to Subala, 29/9/67)

 

So although a physical body is not present, the vibration should be accepted

as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from

the Spiritual Master, that is living. (General lectures, 69/01/13)

 

Devotee: ...so sometimes the Spiritual Master is far away. He may be in Los

Angeles. Somebody is coming to Hamburg Temple. He thinks 'How will the

Spiritual Master be pleased?'

Srila Prabhupada: Just follow his order, Spiritual Master is along with you

by his words. Just like my Spiritual Master is not physically present, but I

am associating with him by his words.

(SB Lectures, 71/08/18)

 

Just like I am working, so my Guru Maharaja is there, Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati. Physically he may not be, but in every action he is there. To

serve master's word is more important than to serve physically.

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 2/5/77)

 

So that is called Prakata, physically present. But that does not mean, Krsna

is dead or God is dead. That does not mean, Prakata or Aprakata, physically

present or not present, it does not matter.

(Lectures SB 73/12/11)

 

So, spiritually, there is no question of separation, even physically we may

be in far distant place.

(Letter to Syama Dasi, 30/08/68)

 

I went to your country for spreading this information of Krsna Consciousness

and you are helping me in my mission, although I am not physically present

there but spiritually I am always with you.

(Letter to Nandarani, Krsna Devi and Subala, 3/10/67)

 

We are not separated actually. There are two - Vani or Vapuh - so Vapu is

physical presence and Vani is presence by the vibration, but they are all

the same.

(Letter to Hamsadutta, 22/6/70)

 

So in the absence of physical presentation of the spiritual master, the

Vaniseva is more important. My Spiritual Master Sarsavati Goswami, may

appear to be physically not present, but still because I try to serve his

instruction, I never feel separated from him.

(Letter to Karandhara, 22/8/70)

 

I also do not feel separation from my Guru Maharaja. When I am engaged in

his service, his pictures give me sufficient strength. To serve master's

word is more important than to serve him physically.

(Letter to Syamasundara, 19/7/70)

 

So far as personal association with Guru is concerned, I was only with Guru

Maharaj 4 or 5 times, but I have never left his association, not even for a

moment. Because I am following his instruction, I have never felt any

separation. There are some of my Godbrothers here in India, who had constant

personal association with Guru Maharaja, but who are neglecting his orders.

This is just like the bug who is sitting on the lap of the king. He may be

very puffed up by his position but all he can succeed in doing is biting the

king. Personal association is not so important as association through

serving.

(Letter to Satyadhana, 20/272)

 

So spiritually appearance and disappearance, there is no difference ...

spiritually there is no such difference, appearance or disappearance.

Although this is the disappearance day of Om Visnupada Sri Srimad

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, there is nothing to be lamented, although

we feel separation.

(Lecture, Los Angeles 13/12/73)

 

So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased with you ... it is not

that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding ... he is

seeing. I never feel that I am alone.

(Lecture, 2/3/75)

 

Vani is more important than vapuh.

(Letter to Tusta Krishna Das, 14/12/72)

 

Yes I am glad that your centre is doing so well and all the devotees are now

appreciating the presence of their spiritual master by following his

instructions, although he is no longer present. This is the right spirit.

(Letter to Karandhara, 13/9/70)

 

The spiritual master by his words, can penetrate into the heart of the

suffering person and inject knowledge transcendental which alone can

extinguish the fire of material existence.

(SB(1987 Ed) 1.7.22)

 

There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means the

physical body. Vapuh will be finished. This material body it will be

finished, that is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of

the spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up...if you always keep

intact, in link with the words and instructions of the higher instructions,

then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding.

(General lectures, 75/03/02)

 

So we should give more stress on the sound vibration, either of Krsna or

Spiritual Master. Never think that I am absent from you, presence by

message(or hearing) is the real touch.

(Letter to students, August 1967)

 

Reception of spiritual knowledge is never checked by any material condition.

(SB (1987)Ed) 7.7.1.)

 

The potency of transcendental sound is never minimised because the vibrator

is apparently absent.

(SB 2.9.8.)

 

The disciple and Spiritual Master are never separated because the Spiritual

Master always keeps company with the disciple as long as the disciple

follows strictly the instructions of the Spiritual Master. This is called

the association of Vani. Physical presence is called Vapuh. As long as the

Spiritual Master is physically present, the disciple should serve the

physical body of the Spiritual Master, and when the Spiritual Master is no

longer physically existing, the disciple should serve the instructions of

the Spiritual Master.

(SB 4:28:47)

 

If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee

should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference

between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself.

In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the

disciple.

(CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35)

 

He lives forever by his divine instructions, and the follower lives with

him.

(SB(1962 Ed) Preface)

 

He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die, when thou art still living in

sound. (Bhaktivinoda Thakura) Yes, the ecstacy of separation of Spiritual

Master is even greater ecstasy than meeting with him.

(Letter to Jadurani, 13/1/68)

 

Krsna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master

can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the

principle, not the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of

place by the principle of relay monitoring.

(Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

 

It is better service to Krsna and Spiritual Master in a feeling of

separation; sometimes there is a risk in the matter of direct service.

(Letter to Madhusudana, 31/12/67)

 

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it

possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

Srila Prabhupada: Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my

books.

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then

all your questions will be answered.

(Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

 

If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A

temple is a place where by one is given the opportunity to render direct

devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. In conjunction with this

you should always read my books daily and all your questions will be

answered and you will have a firm basis of Krishna Consciousness. In this

way your life will be perfect.

(Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22/11/74)

 

Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the

morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

( Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)

 

In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if

there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again

and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by

this process your spiritual life will develop.

(Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

 

Srila Prabhupada: Even a moments association with a pure devotee - all

success!

Revitananda: Does that apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes

Revitananda: Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

Srila Prabhupada: Effect. Of course it requires both things. One must be

very eager to take it.

(Room Conversation, 13/12/70)

 

After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost

ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything.

(Room Conversation, 18/2/76)

 

Paramahamsa: My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad

Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact

with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading

Bhagavad-Gita.

And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So

where is the difficulty?

(Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

 

There is nothing new to be said. Whatever I had to say, I have already said

in my books. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your

endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter.

(Vrindavan, 17/5/77)

 

If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you

through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way.

(BTG 13:1-2, December 1977)

 

Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?

Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!

Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever from my books and you will utilise.

(Interview, Berkley, 17/7/75)

Indian Lady: ... is that spiritual master still guiding after death?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like Krsna is guiding us, similarly

spiritual master will guide us.

(General lectures, 69/09/23)

 

Eternal bond between disciple and Spiritual Master begins from the day he

hears.

(Letter to Jadurani, 4/9/72)

 

The influence of the pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate

with him with a little faith, he gets the chance of hearing about the Lord

from authoritative scriptures like Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita. This

is the first stage of association with the pure devotee.

(Nectar of Devotion, (1982 Ed.), p146)

 

These are not ordinary books. It is recorded chanting. Anyone who reads, he

is hearing.

(Letter to Rupanuga Das, 19/10/74)

 

Regarding parampara system, there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. We have

to pick up the prominent acarya and follow from him.

(Letter to Dayananda, 12/4/68)

 

These great souls(members of the disciplic succession) were not mere

luminaries like comets appearing in the firmament for a while and

disappearing as soon as their mission is done. They are like so many suns

shining all along to give light and heat to succeeding generations. Long

time yet to roll on when they will be succeeded by others of sublime mind,

beauty and calibre. (Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

 

Narayana: So those disciples who don't have the opportunity to see you or

speak with you...

Srila Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't

see his body, you take his words, vani.

Narayana: But how do they know that they're pleasing you?

Srila Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of Guru, that means he is

pleased. And if you do not follow, how can he be pleased?

Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take

advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the Guru says, then automatically

we'll do that.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed away in 1936, and I started

this movement in 1965, 30 years after. Then? I am getting mercy of Guru.

This is vani. Even if Guru is not physically present, if you follow the

vani, then you are getting help.

Sudama: So there is no question of ever separation as long as the disciple

follows the instructions of Guru.

Srila Prabhupada: No. Cakhu-dano-dilo-jei. What is the next one?

Sudama: Cakhu-dano-dilo-jei, janme janme prabhu sei.

Srila Prabhupada: Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who

has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.

(Room conversation, 21/7/75)

 

Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to do without the help of a

Spiritual Master. To reach the spiritual sky through believing the words of

Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?

Srila Prabhupada: I don't follow.

Tamala Krishna Goswami: Can a Christian in this age, without a Spiritual

Master, but by reading the Bible, and following Jesus's words, reach the ...

Srila Prabhupada: When you read the Bible, you follow the Spiritual Master.

How can you say without. As soon as you read the Bible, that means you are

following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. That means that you are

following the Spiritual Master. So where is the opportunity of being without

Spiritual Master.

Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living Spiritual Master.

Srila Prabhupada: Spiritual Master is not question of ... Spiritual Master

is eternal...so your question is 'without Spiritual Master'. Without

Spiritual Master you cannot be at any stage of your life. You may accept

this Spiritual master or that Spiritual master. That is a different thing.

But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible", when you read

Bible that means you are following the Spiritual Master represented by some

priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ.

(Morning Walk, Seattle, 2/10/68)

 

You have asked if it is true that the spiritual master remains in the

universe until all his disciples are transferred to the spiritual sky. The

answer is yes, this is the rule.

(Letter to Jayapataka, 11/7/69)

 

> Without that proof you have no case. This

> apparent 'proof' remains dubious to many.

 

If you think the above is dubious then may Krsna help you, I give up.

 

ys Adri