BG shows physical presence is required

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> > Janeshevara Prabhu your questions are answered in the text where SP

> > writes that we should take advantage of both pancharatrika vidhi &

> > bhagavat viddhi.

>

> It doesn't answer everything for me, Prabhu.

 

Too bad.

 

> > There are many quotations from SP regarding pancharatrika vidhi where he

> > says we must accept that process.

>

> Pancharatrika-vidhi requires that only grihasta-brahmanas give initiation.

> ISKCON does not even come close to following this. There may be some, but

> you must admit that it is almost the exclusive priviledge of sannyasis.

 

Prabhupada's vision of pancharatrika vidhi did not exclude the sannyasis.

And their are several grihastas giving initiation within ISKCON. In my most

humble view, it's not an "exclusive privilidge" issue here, but one of

qualification. And it's here that SP indeed "took risks". Even in giving

us "mlecchas & yavanas" 1st & 2nd initiations! The same principle applies

to the position of "diksha guru". Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

Honestly, I haven't written this to belittle you. It's just that this was

the way SP endeavored to establish vedic culture in the west. He did not

insist on the "utopian"; but indeed he was highly idealistic. At the same

time, he was, indeed, "practical".

 

 

> So, obviously adjustments have been made. I do not have a problem with

> that so long as it is done in a bonafide fashion based upon the overriding

> principle of Bhagavata-vidhi. Lord Caitanya did this when there was a

> problem with the Pancharatrika-vidhi regulations of grihasta-brahmana

> initiation. He wanted everyone who was a Vaisnava to give initiation

> because it was Bhagavat-vidhi and overrode the Pancharatrika-vidhi.

 

???

 

In SP's writings he never discounted/rejected the pancharatrika-vidhi. He

has indeed recommended it strongly.

 

> If something is not working practically due to attachment to rituals and

> regulations, especially in Kali-yuga, Bhagavat-vidhi can assist in the

> adjustment. ISKCON has obvious problems with the Pancharatrika-vidhi of

> physical-present-living-guru diksa initiation. No one can deny this.

 

OK. The problem is that we have created "personality cults" around the

initiators. They ought to assume humble positions/profiles/attitudes in

order to put an end to these "cults". As Radhanath Maharaj suggested at

Vrindavan last Kartik; "regular guru with a low profile".

 

Which carried further would mean that the diksha gurus teach the importance

of shiksha and respecting all vaishnavas, not neglecting vaishanvas in the

name of exclusively worshipping their diksha guru. Of course they must show

their diksha & shiksha gurus all respect; that is the vedic culture. But it

must not degrade into fanatacism... although you find this type of

degradation rampant these days. Must be due to the "less intelligent"

nature of human society, I suspect.

 

> Are we to just say, "No. Everyone has to just surrender to this

> Pancharatrika regulation because that's the way it should be!"?

> Personally, I think Lord Caitanya would override such obvious

> overzealousness with something more practical for the fallen souls of

> Kali-yuga.

 

> Srila Prabhupada said, "Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with

> transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material

> contamination." CC Mad. 4.111

>

> Doesn't this sound like an acceptable adjustment in the spirit of

> Bhagavat-vidhi? How long do we beat a dead horse? Shall we allow ourselves

> to be destroyed by over-endeavor to follow Pancharatrika-vidhi in some

> aspects while at the same time not following others (i.e.,

> grihasta-brahman initiation).

 

Prabhuji, please re-read Prabhupada's instructions regarding the

pancharatrika vidhi; I presume you have a folio with you. If you read ALL

of his instructions in this regard, I hope that you will develop a far more

balanced view of the issue.

 

> I would think that our senior godbrothers who are aspiring to be acaryas

> would sense the natural frustration ( and the losing battle) of fallen

> souls to accept such arbitrary enforcing of regulations and that they

> would make the Bhagavat-vidhi adjustments to facilitate the spiritual

> master's goal.

 

Shivaram Maharaj's book on the "shiksha-guru" is a step in that direction

and I think the GBC and many senior devotees in management around the world

are siezed of the issue. Honestly. Hopefully the "personality cult"

phenomenon will, in due course, cease to be a force within ISKCON; otherwise

there will be more "mindless clashes" in the future, based more on

personalities & their "whims" then anything philosophical.

 

dasanudas,

 

Basu Ghosh Das