No EVIDENCE

[Guest guest]

> Dear Damana Krishna Prabhu, Please accept our humble obeisances. All

> Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> > This order cannot be taken as the only instruction of Srila Prabhupada.

> > And how you want to prove that this Rtvik "on his behalf" was not meaned

> > only in his presence??

>

> The order says nothing about presence or departure, it simply sets up a

> system. Srila Prabhupada said don't change anything, so why was it

> stopped.

 

Your problem is that you are seeing the so called Final Order" not in the

light of previous instructions, but as a separate instruction.

It is logicaly to see that when the child is born that the previous actions

like the birth of father and mother, falling in love of them and garbodhana

samskara performance have nothing to do with this birth and the birth is an

separate ivent. This is how you are illogically separating the july 9th

letter from everything said before. Can you not see that a letter is a

action following the previous ones. This is just the common sense.

 

You can just take a look at the may 28 discussion.

Don't take the cow's utter without taking the head and other parts also.

 

> Let's see if Ajamila has the answer on the CHAKRA debate.

 

I am sure he will destroy you.

 

> > How he could otherwise in his books make statements

> > of how his disciples should be gurus.

 

 

> The above is simply nonsense. If you can find one statement in Srila

> Prabhupada's books which states explicitly that his disciples will all

> become diksa gurus on his departure I shall donate $100,000 to your

> favourite project. Obviously you are not reffering to instructing gurus,

> you must mean diksa.

 

You are following as always your illogical defense strategy. You or whoever

is writting on your behalf must only open the eyes to see that Srila

Prabhupada didn't make the distintion between siksa and diksa but was

refering to all of them.

 

This offer is like a mayavadi offering $100.000 to a sincere vaisnava. The

mayavadi is a mental speculator with no sincerity to accept the truth. They

were severely defeated by Madhva Acarya, Ramanuja Acarya and their

disciples. The book Mayavada sata dushani is killing the very root of

mayavada, but they are still around.

 

I mean diksa.

 

You must see that our statements are based on the following points:

1. a sadhu or an acarya always follows the sastra

2. there is no Rtvik speculation in the teachings of Vedas, Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, and even the recent acarya's like no Gaudiya-math Rtviks!

3.the Rtvik system was also disussed in the may 28 discussion!

4. your interpretion of the letter is not supported by anything else, but

you are seeing the sastras through the speculations on the letter.

5. that managerial actions can accept mundane views but the spiritual not,

so they are not changing in the essence

6. Srila Prabhupada asking us to chant 16 round instead of 64 was not his

invention- Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had told the preachers to chant 16 and

preach, where do you see changes in the basic teachings?

 

> Please now either produce a quote that matches the above or withdraw your

> uninformed statement.

You didn't see all the prooves from Ajamila Pr., Bhasu Ghosh Pr., Sthita

dhir Pr., Vidvan Gauranga Pr. Everything is already supported by

authorithies!

 

 

> > 1. that there is no difference between diksa and siksa guru:

> > Room Conversation Bhubaneswar, January 31, 1977

> >

> > Therefore there is no difference between siksa-guru and diksa-guru

> > because if he's actually guru, he'll not say anything which Krsna has

> > not spoken. Yare dekha tare kaha `krsna'-upadesa. So guru is that.

 

> So then if you really accept that, and you also accept Srila Prabhupada is

> now an active siksa guru, then you are saying he is giving non-different

> to diksa. Welcome to the ritvik camp.

 

I am a complete anti Rtvik, the goal of my life is see the sincere devotees

protected from this diviation. You can maybe convince some bewildered

minority, but not the majority.

 

Everybody knows Srila Prabhupada is a siksa guru and a diksa guru for His

disciples, which were initiated in His living presence.

Since living disciples were siksa (diksa) gurus already in his living

presence, only because Srila Prabhupada as their living guru was present in

living personal form, they out of the ettiquette were not supposed to

initiate.

So after the departure why they would not iniciate?

 

> > 2. That what Vidvan Gauranga Pr. send Srila Prabhupada in "kiba vipra"

> > verse speaks not only about the siksa guru!

>

> The Kiba vipra verse deals with the issue of smarta brahminism, and is a

> totally seperate issue to the amara verse which is the order to become

> guru as relayed to us through Srila Prabhupada. Since the purports clearly

> state 'it is best not to accept any disciples' then how can we all be

> authorised to be diksa gurus?

 

Here is the text in which you have written covered smarta philosophy:

 

> Nor is your understanding correct. The order as conveyed to us

> bu Srila Prabhupada is for instructing gurus only. The

> relevance of that verse to ISKCON is that Srila Prabhupada was

> born in Vaisya family, yet is diksa guru, and we are born in

> so many low conditions, yet are still authorised to act as

> vartma-pradarsaka gurus.

 

Why Srila Prabhupada as a vaisya is qualified to be a diksa guru and his

disciples as out-castes are not? Is this not casteism or a smarta

philosophy? Completely bogus. You are just taking anybogus thing, even

smarta philosophy to support your bogus diviation.

 

So therefore the comment from Vidvan Gauranga Pr. is very relevant.

Srila Prabhupada said again that there is no difference between the

qualification of a siksa and diksa guru, you forgot already the quote.

 

Here also from the same comment of Vidvan Gauranga Pr.on the verse kiba

vipra:

SP:

>> be cognizant of the science of the spirit soul. It does not matter

>>whether

>> one is a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, sannyasi, grhastha or

>> whatever. If one simply understands this science, he can become a

>> spiritual master.

 

>VGD:

>Now the rtviks on reading the above may say, "It is about siksa-guru or

>vartma-pradarsaka gurus only, because Srila Prabhupada talks about

>knowledge: '...everyone is capable of becoming a spiritual master because

>knowledge in Krsna consciousness is on the platform of the spirit soul.'"

>This interpretation is wrong and we shall see why in the next paragraph.

 

SP:

>> It is stated in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa that one

>> should not accept initiation from a person who is not in the brahminical

>> order if there is a fit person in the brahminical order present.

 

VGD:

>What kind of guru was Srila Prabhupada talking about in the previous

>paragraph? It becomes clear in this paragraph. He is talking of

>diksa-guru(s). Otherwise he would not write "...accept initiation from a

>person..." Had Srila Prabhupada been referring to a siksa- or

>vartma-pradarsaka-guru in the previous para, he would not have brought in

>the topic of initiation. This reveals to us that Srila Prabhupada talks

>about diksa-gurus.

 

 

My comment:

Why you think that Srila Prabhupada would have brought up the matter diksa,

if the verse is taking of siksa and vartma-pradarsaka gurus.

Do you find this logical.

 

>If you now go to the order we were

> originally discussing, the amara verse, and carefully read the

> purports, it is very clear what type of guru we are being

> asked to act as.

 

It is very clear to us.

Since Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu (according to you) ordered His followers to

become only siksa guru, why the diksa line with the living gurus continued.

When only siksa would be needed than why Srila Prabhupada immediately

initiated disciples amongst his followers in the year 67, although many fall

down. He could just give them instructions and his books.

Its because diksa means to give knowledge, the mantras are the seed form of

knowledge.

So, why we should not follow him. Here Srila Prabhupada 3 months before the

july letter accepts his disciples to be qualified to be gurus.

And don't forget the may 28th conversation!

Room Conversation Bombay, April 15, 1977

145049/173814

Tamala Krsna: Only you are that powerful, Srila Prabhupada. We're like...

Prabhupada: Why you are not? You are my disciples.

Tamala Krsna: We're like the bugs.

Prabhupada: "Like father, like son."

 

Comment:

The father is a diksa guru, the son can be diksa guru.

 

You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya

Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa. He asked everyone,

"Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya.

Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a

guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare

kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. You

simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not

difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said.

Bas. You become guru.

 

Comment:

Adri and Madhu you accepted that giving knowledge means diksa, so since

Srila Prabhupada is telling the disciples to giv4e knowledge, he is telling

them to be diksa gurus.

 

> > " Diksa. Diksa, initiation, diksa, this Sanskrit word, diksa, means

> > divya-jnanam ksipayati. To ask from spiritual master with service and

> > surrender the transcendental knowledge."

>

> At last you are understanding.

 

 

TO GIVE KNOWLEDGE-DIKSA===== the instruction YOU GIVE KNOWLEDGE MEANS the

instruction YOU GIVE DIKSA!!!!!!

 

YHS

Damana Krsna das