Guest guest Posted May 30, 1999 Report Share Posted May 30, 1999 "COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2357053 from COM] > > > I for one agree that varnasharam dharma ought to be implemented in > > society. > > > > Exactly how to go about it is a very complicated subject. And I'm sure > > that we'll find many shades of opinions on the subject. > > Why? Srila Prabhupada gave four straight days of detailed instruction on how > to start varnasrama-dharma within his movement. Most of his key, senior > disciples were there and they heard everything clearly. How can you say it > is very complicated? It is complicated because it is going upstream against the current of ugrakarmic society that is slowly enveloping the entire earth. We are not exempt from it's influence. It is a fact that many leaders of ISKCON have tried to establish VAD, but as younger men with inexperience in practical matters, they underestimated the hugeness of the task and failed. It is not that the instructions have been ignored, it is that they haven't been successfully carried out. There is a difference. To under estimate the enormity of the task is to be dangerously idealistic and predisposed to failure, which has been the case so far. If an experienced farmer moves to a new environment, it takes him 5 years to adapt. It is easy to say that a new farmer would take much longer. Indocrinated by the ugrakarmic socio -economic paradigm that has successfully driven so many from the land to become wage slaves locked in the cities, most people believe that farmers are dumb and greatly underestimate what it takes to survive on the land. Without food produced from devotee land by devotee farmers, any attempt at VAD is just a shadow attempt. I think, depressed by past failures, we can fault contemporary leadership for not trying again, but it is a little bit understandable why. And to just try in the same ways as the past is pretty much to just pave the way for future defeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 1999 Report Share Posted May 30, 1999 Excellent points. Thank you. > It is complicated because it is going upstream against the current of > ugrakarmic society that is slowly enveloping the entire earth. We are not > exempt from it's influence. > > It is a fact that many leaders of ISKCON have tried to establish VAD, but > as younger men with inexperience in practical matters, they > underestimated the hugeness of the task and failed. It is not that the > instructions have been ignored, it is that they haven't been > successfully carried out. There is a difference. > > To under estimate the enormity of the task is to be dangerously > idealistic and predisposed to failure, which has been the case so far. > If an experienced farmer moves to a new environment, it takes him 5 years > to adapt. It is easy to say that a new farmer would take much longer. > Indocrinated by the ugrakarmic socio -economic paradigm that has > successfully driven so many from the land to become wage slaves locked in > the cities, most people believe that farmers are dumb and greatly > underestimate what it takes to survive on the land. Without food produced > from devotee land by devotee farmers, any attempt at VAD is just a shadow > attempt. > > I think, depressed by past failures, we can fault contemporary > leadership for not trying again, but it is a little bit understandable > why. And to just try in the same ways as the past is pretty much to just > pave the way for future defeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 1999 Report Share Posted May 30, 1999 > Dear Janesvara Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP! > > I apologize for taking advantage of the opportunity, but I am not very > > interested in discussing anything but varnasrama-dharma. When someone > > boldly states how we should be following Srila Prabhupada's orders about > > pancharatrika, diksa, or this or that but completely neglects to mention > > varnasrama-dharma, which in my humble opinion, was by far the more > > important consideration of Srila Prabhupada, then one can expect a whole > > big load of goodies from me. > > We can appreciate that you are feeling frustrated, and we hope that > something develops along these lines soon, but you should please be aware > that there is a lot more to varnasrama than just occupations and > economics. Deity worship and diksa are also included. > > Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das With all due respect, lets try to start at the beginning before jumping to and worrying about "higher mathematics". Srila Prabhupada said varna (occupations/economics) first, asrama (Deity worship/diksa) later. They can all go on simultaneously, like in a school system higher and lower mathematics are taught, but people must start at the kindergarten, elementary level. And some of the classes will remain at the elementary level. But in the spiritual education system they will achieve the perfection as well. I appreciate your frustration with me. I have been playing the squeeky-wheel role for so long now, the squeeks have become a kind of music to my own ears. Maybe the GBC will throw some oil on this wheel one day and spare everyone the noise. You say you hope something happens along these lines soon? It has been 25 years, 2 months, 16 days and 5 or 6 hours since Srila Prabhupada first ordered the implementation of varnasrama colleges and gave detailed instruction to his senior-most disciples how to do it in EVERY center of his movement. He said it was the most auspicious program for the movement. What could we show him right now for him to see how hard we have been working on fulfilling this order? I would think anyone would be a bit frustrated at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 1999 Report Share Posted May 30, 1999 > > Why? Srila Prabhupada gave four straight days of detailed instruction on > > how to start varnasrama-dharma within his movement. Most of his key, > > senior disciples were there and they heard everything clearly. How can > > you say it is very complicated? > > It is complicated because it is going upstream against the current of > ugrakarmic society that is slowly enveloping the entire earth. We are not > exempt from it's influence. > > It is a fact that many leaders of ISKCON have tried to establish VAD, but > as younger men with inexperience in practical matters, they > underestimated the hugeness of the task and failed. It is not that the > instructions have been ignored, it is that they haven't been > successfully carried out. There is a difference. Respectfully, I disagree. Never has the GBC instituted varnasrama colleges in every center of the movement. Never even tried. We must take baby-steps first. Varnasrama-dharma is not so much "implementation" as it is "recognition". First, the paradigm must be accepted - that not everyone is brahmana and therefore proper training of each varna must be there and even if he remains sudra, he will "get the perfection" as Srila Prabhupada said. > To under estimate the enormity of the task is to be dangerously > idealistic and predisposed to failure, which has been the case so far. That is because they have tried to run before they can even crawl. We must remember - Varna first, asrama later. That is not the current ISKCON paradigm and hasn't been throughout the failed attempts of varnasrama-dharma. > If an experienced farmer moves to a new environment, it takes him 5 years > to adapt. It is easy to say that a new farmer would take much longer. > Indocrinated by the ugrakarmic socio -economic paradigm that has > successfully driven so many from the land to become wage slaves locked in > the cities, most people believe that farmers are dumb and greatly > underestimate what it takes to survive on the land. Without food produced > from devotee land by devotee farmers, any attempt at VAD is just a shadow > attempt. That is not exactly what Srila Prabhupada said in his morning walk conversations in 1974. It is not without merit, and I agree it is a significant factor in our success, but there are many other steps which can be taken towards the recognition of varnasrama-dharma as the priority social issue for the devotees of Srila Prabhupada's movement. > I think, depressed by past failures, we can fault contemporary > leadership for not trying again, but it is a little bit understandable > why. And to just try in the same ways as the past is pretty much to just > pave the way for future defeat. Right. It should be done exactly as Srila Prabhupada prescribed in his morning walks - start varnasrama colleges in EVERY center of the movement. I feel he stressed this because he wanted to establish the VAD paradigm as our main focus for social development, without which there would be only chaos and discord and in-fighting over philosophical issues which are of really no concern for most classes of men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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