Guest guest Posted June 7, 1999 Report Share Posted June 7, 1999 Dear respected vaisnavas, PAMHO. AGTSP. ALL GLORIES TO THE GBC AND GBC FOLLOWERS. Since the Rtvikvadis are taking advantage of some gurus having problems or leaving the position of guru. They argue since the guru's are falling from the path of devotional service, why not to have Srila Prabhupada as guru, even when this contradicts the sastras, the spiritual tradition of all the 4 sampradayas. The tattva that a guru can be simultaneously liberated and not liberated " as to have svarupa siddhi" is explaining how Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to be gurus. Since Srila Prabhupada gave so many enlightining purport on this matter, I try to present some here. -------- Room Conversation Bombay, August 16, 1976 The statements of Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such eternal associates of the Lord; but anyone who follows the principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above mentioned group. Comment: The teachings of an liberated acarya are so potent that a devotee strictly following them becomes empowered to be guru. So, this gurus who are not liberated on their own, by the power of the potent teachings of a eternal liberated acarya, have the same potency to deliver the fallen souls and disciples. They can act as gurus and acaryas as long they are following the teachings of the liberated guru. They are liberated by the following of the nitya siddha acarya since the potency of this liberated acarya is acting through them. As Srila Prabhupada says in his own words: "Is as good as in the above mentioned group (nitya siddha gurus-eternal associates)" A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession. Comment: The liberated acarya is always acting on the transcendental platform and he is directed from within from the caitya guru- Supersoul. Naturally his teachings are as good as those of the Paramatma or Krishna. So there is no question that he will do mistakes. The not liberated gurus who are less qualified on their own account, can get the neccesary knowledge from the teachings given by the liberated guru. Srila Prabhupada says that still the not liberated and less qualified devotee can be an acarya and guru. It is the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a certain group or caste, are called hellish. Comment: It is clear from the above text that Srila Prabhupada is exepting both categories of the gurus- the liberated and those liberated by following as qualified to act as gurus and acaryas. Therefore this text warns the sincere devotees to not commit offences. One commiting this kinds of offences is considered hellish! Only this statements of Srila Prabhupada are enough to dispel the darkness. --------- Prabhupada's Lectures Bhagavad-gita 1972 And akarma means you act in such a way that you become liberated. Akarma. You are not bound up. That akarma is yajna, Yajnarthe karma anyatra karma bandhana. If you act for Visnu or Krsna, then you are not, I mean to say, liable of the responsibilites of karma.Because you are doing everything for Krsna. Comment: Akarma are actions which liberate one, the person doing this akarma activities which consist of activities performed as a yajna or sacrifice unto Lord Visnu is therefore liberated on the account of the activities performed in bhakti yoga. The devotees especially a guru is performing everything for Krsna, so naturally they are not liable to the law of karma -therefore are liberated from the bounds of karma. --------- Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 10: Chapter Four, Text 20 "A person acting in the service of Krsna with his body, mind and words is a liberated person, even within the material world." (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.187) Therefore, one is forbidden to regard the guru as an ordinary human being (gurusu nara-matir... naraki sah). The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Comment: Because the guru is engaging his body, mind and words in Krsna's service he is liberated and therefore is offensive to see the guru as ordinary person. The guru may not be liberated like the eternal associates of Lord Sri Krsna but he is liberated by following and by performing Krsna consciousness activities with body,mind and words. ---------- Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1969 ....krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya: ``Anyone who understands factually what are the activities of Krsna, what is Krsna, he is spiritual master. He is spiritual...'' Therefore Vyasadeva... Narada is spiritual master, Vyasadeva is spiritual master, or anyone who knows by following their footprints, he is also spiritual master. Comment: The not liberated guru may not know Krsna from within, but he "knows by following in their footprints". So therefore by following the footprints of the liberated gurus he understands what are the activities of Krsna, and therefore by the definition: " Anyone who understands factually what are the activities of Krsna, what is Krsna, he is spiritual master." Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, sei yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya. And one who knows Krsna-tattva, he becomes immediately liberated. Comment: By the definition of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, one who knows Krsna-tattva by following in the footprints of liberated acaryas and gurus but is not liberated on his own account, he becomes liberated by having this knowledge received from the liberated acaryas. Because it is said here, akhila-bandha-muktaye, liberated from all conditions of material nature. So a spiritual master means one who knows Krsna. And as soon as one knows Krsna, he's liberated. Therefore a spiritual master is liberated. Comment: So spiritual master means one who knows Krsna. The question which has to be answered now is:" How he knows Krsna?" This questions was already answered above, that he knows Krsna by following in the footprints of liberated acaryas and gurus. ---------- Prabhupada's Lectures Caitanya-caritamrta 1966 (morning) Prabhupada: Sarvajna munira vakya----sastra-'paramana', ama-saba jivera haya sastra-dvara "jnana'. We should always think that we are in the modes of ignorance. We are just trying to make progress from ignorance to goodness and then transcend. This is the process of spiritual realization. Nobody should think that we are perfect. We cannot be. God is, only God is perfect. And we are all imperfect. Even our so-called liberated stage, we are still imperfect. Comment: The living entity as the infinite part of Krsna even he can be considered perfect, he is still imperfect since he has not allpervarding knowledge. Therefore one has to take shelter of authority because, constitutionally, we are imperfect. Lord Caitanya says, ama-saba jivera haya sastra- dvara "jnana'. So therefore, for real knowledge, we have to consult the scriptures, sastra. Comment: Even in his constutional position one is considered imperfect in comparision to the all perfect and all knowing Lord. The real knowledge is given in the sastras. The Vedas are eternal. They are the words of the Lord. Every word is eternal and is never changed. So therefore one even in the liberated stage has to follow and consult the Vedas and all scriptures following the Vedas. Sadhu-sastra-guru. Sadhu means pious, religious, honest person. Sadhu, whose character is spotless, he's called sadhu. Comment: A devotee of Krsna is naturally a sadhu. Sastra means scripture, and guru. Guru means spiritual master. They are on the equal level. Why? Because the medium is scripture. Comment: Scripture are as good as the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. The scripture, the sadhu and guru are on the same level because they are giving the same knowledge. Sadhu and guru are speaking the sastras and they are explaining them that a particular person can understand the sastra. But the meaning of the sastra remains unchanged. Guru is considered to be liberated because he follows the scripture. Comment: The guru is subordinate to the sastras, as the sastras directly represent the Lord. The guru cannot be liberated and change the meanings of scriptures, or that ommits to follow them. A liberated guru respects the scriptures as the representative of the Lord and preaches the knowledge of sastras, even a complete avadhuta like Vamsi das Babaji or Gaura Kisora das Babaji didn't speak anything opposing the scriptures. They completely rejected the social traditions or even the spiritual traditions as given for the benefit and upliftment of the practising devotees. But they followed the sastras when they preached or transmitted knowledge. A guru who is not liberated on his own account is liberated when he is following the sastras. The sastras are perfect knowlege and there is no need of speculating on them. One has just to repeat as one has learned from the guru. Sadhu is considered to be honest and saintly because he follows scripture. Sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya. Nobody can become a sadhu if he does not accept the principles of scripture. Comment: So the sastras are the superior. Scriptures have to be followed by sadhu and sastra. But the sastra doesn't change according to the particular desire of a guru or sastra. Nobody can be accepted as guru, or spiritual master, if he does not follow the principles of scripture. This is the test. Comment: The test for guru is how much he is following the scriptures, he may be liberate or not liberated this is the test. As long a guru who is not liberated on his own account follows the scriptures he is considered liberated. When he is opposing the scriptures he can be not accepted as guru anymore. ---------- Prabhupada's Lectures General - 1973 Anyone who is coming to Krsna consciousness, he's not ordinary living being. Anyone who is connected with our movement, he's not ordinary living being. Actually he's liberated soul. Comment: Here Srila Prabhupada is clearly pointing out that since anyone connected with the movement can be considered liberated. Sometimes it is very difficult to see in the daily dealing with devotees that they should be liberated. If we want we can see so many defects or faults. But all the living beeing connected with Krsna Conscious movement are accepting the satras, are engaging the body, mind and words in Krsnas service, are following in the footprints of liberated souls and therefore they can also understand the nature of Krsna's activities. So they can be taken as liberated. WE SHOULD THEREFORE FOLLOW THE SCRIPTURES AND PERFORM KRSNA CONSCIOUS ACTIVITIES-AKARMA, ENGAGE BODY, WORDS AND MIND IN THE SERVICE OF KRSNA AND SO WE BECOME LIBERATED. THE RTVIKVADA IS ABSOLUTELY NO SOLUTION SINCE IT IS ACTING IN THE MUNDANE SPHERE NAMELY TRYING TO ESTABLISH A DIVIANT SPECULATION ON THE COURT, ACCEPTS MUNDANE PERSONS AUTHORITIES TO DECIDE ON TRANSCENDENTAL MATTERS, (which is only covered fight for power and money from the side of the Rtvikvadis), JUGGLING WITH THE WORDS, ACCEPTING MUNDANE SOLUTIONS AND EXPLAINING THE SASTRAS ACCORDING TO ONES WHIMS AND TH3E SPECULATIONS ON THE JULY 9th LETTER, IS BLASPHEMING GURUS AND VAISNAVAS, IS CONSIDERING GURUS AS ORDINARY PERSONS AGAINST THE SCRIPTURAL INJUNTIONS AND IS WAISTING SRILA PRABHUPADA'S MONEY. A REAL BENEFICIAL WORK FOR THE ISCKON COMMUNITY. When one is thinking that to accept a guru who may not be liberated by following, is risky, since the posibility of fall down is there, he may argue taht better reject the sastras and previous acaryas and accept Srila Prabhupada, the nitya siddha, eternal liberated guru and associate of the Lord as posthomus guru, since on can be sure he will not fall down. Dear Rtvikvadis. But for the sake so called safety you are commiting vaisnava aparadhas and guru aparadhas, are diverting the meanings of Srila Prabhupada's teachings as to fit the speculations on the july 9th letter and are engaging also Srila Prabhupada's money to fill up the bank accounts of the lawyers instead to use it for the preaching. I hope you are not aware of what you are doing due to the bewilderment, so the offence and reactions will be less for you. It is therefore not hard to see for a sincere devotee that a guru is liberated by following from the above quotes, but one may be still concerned, that even my guru is liberated and bonafide now and I am getting so much mercy and inspiration from him at the present, but what if he later will fall down. Here Srila Prabhupada is explaining this point very lucidly. Room Conversation London, July 11, 1973 Prabhupada: No, this argument is not very strong. Just like one foodstuff, freshly made, it is fresh. But if somebody argues that if it remains four days more, it will become bad, that is surmisation. Now it is fresh. We take it fresh. What will happen in future, that is no consideration. In future, everyone may fall and everyone may become elevated. But we have to take his present situation, what he is at present. COMMENT: There is no need to speculate therefore who will fall down or who will elevate himself. The guru should be taken as he is acting now. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur said that a vaisnava should live in the presence, and not think about the past or speculate about the future. One may speculate all time what will happen, but it may happen different that one has emagined, so what was the use of all this time wasted. Father Tanner: But couldn't it be the difference between appearance and reality? Prabhupada: This is reality. If at the present moment he is free from all sinful activities, that is reality. In future, everyone is susceptible to fall down. If he does not carry the principles strictly that proneness is there. But that is not consideration. What he is at present, that is consideration. COMMENT: So the reality is what is happening in the present. The future reality can not be considered since is unclear. Father Tanner: But what he is at present may be an accident. Prabhupada: Why accident? Which is actually happening, why it is accident? Father Tanner: Well, for instance, if you take a man shipwrecked on an island alone, he is not in any sense taking part in impure love, or illicit love. But it doesn't mean to say that he is free from all desire for illicit love. Prabhupada: No. Nobody's free. But so long he acts nicely, he's nice. COMMENT: Why a sincere person should be accused as a thief just because so many people are thieves. It doesn't make any sense. So a sincere guru who is liberated by following should be accepted as such, as long he is not diviating from the above prescribtions. One may be having some material impurities but since he is not acting according to them, but rather he engages in service to Krsna he can be considered as pure. Father Tanner: So it is the action, rather than the, no, the exterior rather than the interior. Prabhupada: No, interior... Well, of course, everyone has got interior tendency, but by practicing actually, exteriorally, that interior also is reformed. It is, by external behavior, the interior behavior also becomes fixed up. By practice. Therefore there is regular class so that he may be purified internally and externally. Sa bahyabhyantara-sucih. Yah smaret pundarikaksam sa bahyabhyantara-sucih. If you constantly remember the Supreme Lord, so you become automatically purified, internally and externally. COMMENT: By first acting purely exteriorally in service to Krsna ones internal consciousness will become purified, this is the fact for the guru and the disciple. Everyone can become pure and also liberated. YHS Damana Krsna das Br. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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