reply to the Rtvik-aVeda

[Guest guest]

Dear glorious Srila Prabhupada-anugas and GBC followers,

Pamho. All glories to my diksa guru! AGTSP.

 

I want just to show that even a devotee not specially versed in sastra can

point out the defects of the Rtvik arguments.

 

> > The way the pro-rtviks put it is absurd: "A powerful diksa-guru such as

> > Srila Prabhupada CAN post-humously initiate and accept disciples. Which

> > sastra says that he cannot do so?"

>

> No we do NOT say this. What we say is that Srila Prabhupada ALREADY was

> the diksa guru for ISKCON. This was the standard.

 

It WAS the standard, naturally when he was performing his preaching

activities. So it is clear that Srila Prabhupada WAS and is not more since

he is enjoying the pastimes of Krishna. So the word jugglery on your side

doesn't change the points to your Krsnakant-Rtvikvada group.

Somehow the Rtvikvadis don't really know even their PROPHETS GOSPEL namely

the speculations of Mr. Desai, since he clearly says this!

 

> His books were also the 'law-books' for ISKCON. 16 rounds etc. was also >

>the standard. If you wish to CHANGE these standards at ANY TIME - either

>pre or post departure - you need Authority from Srila Prabhupada. That's

>ALL we are saying.

 

The Rtvikist problem is that you are not considering the SP books and

sastras at all. The Rtvikist tactics of pointing someones misdeeds which

actually are comitted by you, have no strong effect.

How is changing those following Guru(Srila Prabhupada), sadhu(previous

acaryas) and sastras (the complete Vedic knowledge and works by previous

acaryas plus all the Srila Prabhupada books) or those who follow a asadhu KK

De(mon)sai and represent Srila Prabhupada teachings in a speculative way, so

that they even present Srila Prabhupada as a nonfollower of his guru,

previous acaryas and sastras as to try to give substance to this

speculations. Just for some material benefit!

 

 

> And

> instead of just coming forward and presenting this authority- which is a

> simple enough request - what does the GBC representative and expert pandit

> Ajamila do on current CHAKRA debate:

>

> He gives 'straw man 'arguments;

But based on Guru, Sadhu and sastra!

> Attacks us for being deviants;

Are you not?

 

> Presents a 'law' that is NOT traditional, after telling us we must follow

> tradition;

 

The Rtvivadis are trying to make the vaisnava philosophy into a court case.

The Rtvikist simply have to see the basic things as different from the

details without any laws or lawyers.

 

 

> Contradicts the GBC by saying the ritvik turns into a ritvik-acarya;

 

Again some farout thing with no support! As to create some wrong impression.

 

> No wonder the IRG is growing. As long as we continue to be

> mis-represented, then as soon as people find out what we are actually

> saying then they become convinced by us, as it now seems to be happening

> on the CHAKRA debate.

 

I know some people who joined your IRG group. One was not chanting since

three years at least, others were always agressive and uncooperative.

I saw a cat sleeping in the pujari room in Calcutta in the middle of Deity

paraphernalia and another time I saw that the cooks so called brahmanas were

smoking and playing carts after they cooked and what they cooked that was

then presented to Krsna as he may accept. What standards the IRG is

following?

 

If IRG gets some dozens of people it is already growing. You know how many

the GBC followers are? We are in quality and quantity superior.

 

> So please present this authority from SRILA PRABHUPADA - that's all we

> ask.

 

Thank you. So we are already following this and no need even to accept your

advice because we already don't follow Mr. KK De(mon)sai, but Srila

Prabhupada AS HE IS.

 

> > "One's first duty is to accept a bona fide spiritual master. The student

> > or disciple should be very inquisitive; he should be eager to know the

> > complete truth about eternal religion (sanatana-dharma). The words

> > guru-susrusaya mean that one should personally serve the spiritual

> > master by giving him bodily comforts, helping him in bathing, dressing,

> > sleeping, eating and so on. This is called guru-susrusanam. A disciple

> > should serve the spiritual master as a menial servant, and whatever he

> > has in his possession should be dedicated to the spiritual master." (SB

> > 7.7.30-31, purport)

> >

> > Note the word "diksa" in the Sanskrit. Here it is stated that one should

> > take diksa from a guru and personally serve him. Therefore he must be

> > personally present.

>

> The above verse uses the word 'disciple' NOT 'pre-initiated' aspiring

> disciple. Thus this requirement for 'personal service' is just as

> applicable to the initiated disciple. Thus by Vidvan prabhu's logic that

> means once the Guru leaves the planet this 'personal service' is not

> possible. That means ALL of Srila Prabhupada's disciples inluding his own

> Guru Maharaja, are disobeying Srila Rupa Goswami, according to Vidvan

> prabhu.

 

 

What kind of logic was that. I had to read three times to believe something

so unlogical was really written. Seems that this is really mayavada stuff.

Looks like the mayavadi commentaries on Gita. Once is commented like this,

next they contradict themself. And one the end one doesn't know what he

read. I like Srila Prabhupada's books since he is so straightforward!

 

1. In the text send by Bhakti Vikas Maharaja it is stated:

>>The words guru-susrusaya mean that one should personally serve the

>>spiritual master by giving him bodily comforts, helping him in bathing,

>>dressing, sleeping, eating and so on.

2. So you are trying to argue that since Srila Prabhupada is not present the

disciples cannot give him the bodily comfort.

3. So all disciples of SP are disobeying because

4. Conclusion a simple thing again the Rtvikist group tries to convert a

simple thing as to serve the guru into a henceforward thing out of the

context and with false logic they are pointing SP disciples of not following

this.

Conclusion: Word jugglery.

Since Srila Prabhupada never give in writting that he left his body and the

planet, should we still think that he is around. The gurus bodily comfort is

naturally taken care in his living presence and is not again a henceforward

thing. In this world there no absolute henceforward even for a single thing.

Since this Devi-dham is temporary.

 

First of all it is a common thing that happens in the material world even

for a liberated soul that he leaves the body. So the scripture is always

logical, therefore no scripture was considering that to serve a living guru

was meaned after the departure. This is clear to the normal what to say of

Krsna or Vyasa.

You can not deny that Srila Prabhupada was served by his sincere disciples

during his living presence as where all the previous acaryas served by their

followers during their physical presence. Did you see Srila Prabhupada ever

ordering that :"My disciples have to take care of me when I am not present,

when I will depart." Srila Prabhupada had common sense and by writting the

books he was considering that the reader has also a common sense.

So the granddisciples of Srila Prabhupada are naturally following the

footsteps of His Divine Grace and his teachings as to give bodily comfort to

their living diksa gurus.

 

> This a common mistake made by many persons when they present 'evidence'

> showing the necessity for a 'physically' present Guru.

 

Seems the Rtvikvadis know more philosophy than Srila Prabhupada. Since Srila

Prabhupada never ordered someone to give bodily comfort to his departed

Gurumaharaja but he strongly ordered to follow the mission which was given

to Srila Prabhupada by his Gurumaharaja. He ordered to take care of his

body, but he didn't say they should "do" it after his departure. He said

that during his presence they should give diksa on his behalf, he didn't say

he wanted to be still a diksa guru in Goloka Vrindavan, surpassing the

scriptures.

He said that they should serve him personally while living present and then

follow his vani- teachings. But he never excluded vapuh as to not be

important. I just give the quote again, so Srila Prabhupada himself can

explain.

> The verses in question invariably mention the word 'disciple' , and not

>'aspiring disciple'. That means, the verse is applicable to the disciples

> who have already been initiated. Therefore the verse CANNOT be implying >

>the need for a physically present guru, otherwise as soon as the guru

>departs, the disciple would no longer be able to serve the guru, and we

>know that is not the case since otherwise all of Srila Prabhupada's

>disciples would have been condemned for the last 22 years.

 

Again, how this can be logical?

 

> Thus please note that the above verse, and other verses like it, do not

> state that the 'personal service' is LIMITED to ONLY the 'aspiring

> bhakta', but rather they say it is applicable for the disciple - that is

> someone who is already initiated.

 

But it doesn't say that a aspiring devotee cannot serve, but it the duty of

the initiated disciple to serve his LIVING and BODILY PRESENT guru, since

the guru gives him so much and also appart from that he is giving up the

tendency of the conditioned soul for being puffed up and want to do only

what brings him personal material sense enjoyment. To give up selfishness,

pride and tendency for control is the necessity for spiritual advancment. So

the guru is training the disciple while allowing him to serve his personal

and bodily needs.

One also serves out of affection Krsna's bodily needs in Goloka Vrindavana.

But nobody is blamed to not serve Krsna like that in the material world. So

one has to be present to be personally served.

> What you actually need is a verse which states that BEFORE one gets

> initiated, the spiritual master does need to be physucally present, but

> that after the guru departs, his physical presence is no longer required.

 

As long the guru is present naturally the sincere loving disciple will give

all this service out of deep indebtness. It is not that the physical

presence is not required after the guru departs but this is the LAW of Krsna

's maya potency, that a departed soul is not present and everyone has to

depart, even those posthomousvadis will experience, that after their

departure they will not have any Rtvikist "intraplanetary of

intradimensional preachings, but will have to do something else in a

different body.

 

But the training given by the living diksa guru remains remmembered if one

is sincere. And so one can save another people and offer this service unto

the diksa gurus lotus feet and also train another genaration as to follow

the diksa gurus vani.

 

 

> Thus unless the verse makes an explicit distinction between aspiring

> disciples and actual disciples, those who use these verses to demonstrate

> the need for a physically present guru are simply shooting themselves in

> the foot, and condemning every disciple of Srila Prabhupada in the

> movement, just as Vidvan Prabhu has done here.

>

> > Jala means water and anayana means to bring. If someone is told to bring

> > water, it is understood that he must bring it in a suitable container.

> > This maxim refers to saying something which is not stated, but is

> > nevertheless understood. It doesn't have to be explicitly stated because

> > it is plain to understand.

>

> Well the word 'disciple' IS explicitly stated, and if you wish to conclude

> that the Guru MUST be physically present then it must be applicable for

> all disciples who have gurus, which means all the Srila Prabhupada

> disciples, including Bhakti Vikasa Swami who 'found' this verse, are in

> trouble according to Vidvan prabhu.

The Rtviks are in trouble and nobody else. This confused text is showing

this!

 

The Rtvikvadis cannot accept even death? It is natural that if one likes or

loves a person he will personally do things for his bodily confort when he

is alive. There is simply no need to give bodily comfort to a departed

spiritual master, since even the liberated soul when acting in the body has

to fulfil bodily needs, after in the spiritual pastimes he is simply serving

Krsna in his spiritual form. Why this is confusing the Rtvikvadis? I can not

imagine how this points came up.

 

One has guru, yes. So a guru when he is physically present gives training

and it is not to avoid that he will depart. But all the personal service

which was performed to assist the spiritual master during his physical

presence empowers one for seve him in vani.

 

Yhs in service of Srila Prabhupada AS HE IS.

Damana Krsna das Br.