Evidence for guru-related-problems during Lord Caitanya's times

[Guest guest]

"COM: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)" wrote:

 

> I agree that there has been too much emphasis on diksa and insufficient

> emphasis on siksa. However, a diksa guru is also expected to provide siksa

> to his disciples and take full responsibility for his disciples.

>

 

Yes and, if the "diksa guru" was not qualified to accept the position in the

first place, what shall the "disciple" do? Seek another diksa/siksa guru. But

it would seem prudent and patient to first make certain a person is eligible

to accept the position of diksa guru by applying scriptural tests of his

qualifications. What are those qualifications? Does anyone have a list or

documentation of some sort? Or have we just been "winging" it? If so, it would

be wise to stop and have the brahmanas of the movement develop a paper which

describes the sastric symptoms of a diksa guru for every prospective and

existing disciple to review in order that they can make an educated decision

as to who they will accept as their diksa guru.

 

A diksa guru "should" be able to give siksa also, I agree. But in ISKCON we do

not have to worry too much about this because Srila Prabhupada can be the

primary siksa guru for the next few hundred years or so. I think the diksa

formality can be there, as it was when Srila Prabhupada was "present", but

after the formal initiation ceremony a disciple can direct the majority of his

guru-puja to Srila Prabhupada if he so desires. This should be completely

supported if the disciple chooses this program. He can be grateful and

respectful to the ISKCON diksa guru who performed the ceremony but it can end

there, I feel.

 

Actually, I think there is too much emphasis on the whole guru issue.

Certainly we are eternally indebted to our gurus, siksa, diksa, vartma, etc.,

but one must get on with his life and fulfill many prescribed duties of life

like the myriad examples of our dearmost Vaisnava forefathers like the

Pandavas, Dhruva, Prahlada, vrajabasis, etc., etc., etc. They are certainly

devoted and respectful of their respective gurus to the highest degree in

their heart of hearts, but they do not have to make it a public display all

day long in order to impress someone around them that THEY are REALLY a good

disciple and will be specially treated and favored by the guru because they

make such a show of it. This was very prevalent during my stay in the temples

in the 70's. Little practical work in respective varnas, but a hell of a lot

of showmanship. Krsna can remain on the tongue and mind of a devotee

throughout the day and no one need even recognize it. It is said a Vaisnava

can be undetectable from others around him engaged in all kinds of activities

but he never forgets for Whom he is engaged.

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur who wrote the most impressive prayers to

the spiritual master said, "At least three times a day I should offer my

respectful obeisances to my spiritual master." This is very nice respect to

ones guru if done with love. One can do so when one first rises, at midday and

before taking rest. At least three times doesn't mean ONLY three times, but I

think you can get my drift?

 

When I read the daily activities of Krsna and the Pandavas and so many other

great pure devotees I find them fully engaged in their respective varnas.

This, I presume, is because that is the order of all true Vedic spiritual

masters of their disciples for their ultimate liberation into pure devotional

service of the Lord, and THAT is what will truly please the spiritual master.

Show-bottle spiritualism will be of no use.

 

The true guru also will be fully engaged in some particular engagement and

have very little time to entertain the ritualistic practices of puja. Out of

all the hours Srila Prabhupada spent with us the VAST majority were spent in

private engagement working on his duty - translating the books.

 

 

If we all spent more time trying to fulfill our founder acarya's order to

implement varnasrama-dharma everyday, all day, in every center for every

devotee, there would be little time or necessity of debating guru issues.

 

We have the PERFECT siksa guru in Srila Prabhupada. He will be "here" with us

through his books and instructions for a long, long time, if we want him. The

emphasis should be on the siksa guru especially when we have an

uttama-adhikari for EVERYONE to totally depend upon for their transcendental

knowledge which, ultimately, is the true diksa for everyone. If we are

concerned with the quality of the initiation ritual diksa guru, for which we

have obvious reasons to be concerned, get the formality out of the way quickly

in organized ceremonial fashion at regular intervals of the year, at

designated locations, and any prospective disciple candidate who has been

taking regular siksa from Srila Prabhupada's books and has followed the

designated requirements of his respective guna and karma can go to the most

convenient location and get initiated by whichever diksa guru is presiding

over that particular ceremony. Then the disciple can go back to his or her

prescribed varna duties and continue their private worship of Srila Prabhupada

as they wish.

 

This may not be the choice of every prospective candidate but it should be

offered and supported as a legitimate means of obtaining their link to the

parampara which Srila Prabhupada is still presiding over.

 

Time must be spent on developing the written and sastric authorized

qualifications of a diksa guru in order that the standards are widely known

and understood. This will set proper goals for those aspiring to the divine

title of true, highly qualified Vaisnava diksa guru. While we can know that

some great devotees "fall down" and can be rejected as gurus, we certainly

don't want to encourage that standard. We have all the time in the world.

Srila Prabhupada got his job done - the Books are here and EVERYTHING is in

them that we need to go back home back to Godhead.

 

 

BTW, could you please just give me three (3) qualifications of the diksa guru

from sastra? This is not meant as a challenge, I am just curious what

standards your good self uses in this regard.

 

ys,

jd

[Guest guest]

> Therefore a list

> of fallen gurus may not be presented since Vaisnavas wouldn't like to

> relish discussing the defects of other Vaisnavas.

 

And that implies that those who do relish making lists of fallen gurus and

publicizing it are not Vaisnavas.

 

"Even though such offenders may dress as Vaisnavas with false tilaka and

mala, they are never forgiven by the Lord if they offend a pure Vaisnava.

There are many instances of this in the sastras." (SB 4.19.37, PURPORT)

 

"There are many karmis in the dress of devotees, but the Supreme Personality

of Godhead can detect their purpose." (SB 8.9.28, purport)

 

Your servant,

Vipramukhya Swami

[Guest guest]

Janesvara dasa wrote:

 

> "COM: Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN)" wrote:

>

> > I agree that there has been too much emphasis on diksa and insufficient

> > emphasis on siksa. However, a diksa guru is also expected to provide siksa

> > to his disciples and take full responsibility for his disciples.

> >

>

> Yes and, if the "diksa guru" was not qualified to accept the position in the

> first place, what shall the "disciple" do? Seek another diksa/siksa guru. But

> it would seem prudent and patient to first make certain a person is eligible

> to accept the position of diksa guru by applying scriptural tests of his

> qualifications. What are those qualifications? Does anyone have a list or

> documentation of some sort? Or have we just been "winging" it? If so, it

would

> be wise to stop and have the brahmanas of the movement develop a paper which

> describes the sastric symptoms of a diksa guru for every prospective and

> existing disciple to review in order that they can make an educated decision

> as to who they will accept as their diksa guru.

>

> A diksa guru "should" be able to give siksa also, I agree. But in ISKCON we

do

> not have to worry too much about this because Srila Prabhupada can be the

> primary siksa guru for the next few hundred years or so. I think the diksa

> formality can be there, as it was when Srila Prabhupada was "present", but

> after the formal initiation ceremony a disciple can direct the majority of

his

> guru-puja to Srila Prabhupada if he so desires. This should be completely

> supported if the disciple chooses this program. He can be grateful and

> respectful to the ISKCON diksa guru who performed the ceremony but it can end

> there, I feel.

>

> Actually, I think there is too much emphasis on the whole guru issue.

> Certainly we are eternally indebted to our gurus, siksa, diksa, vartma, etc.,

> but one must get on with his life and fulfill many prescribed duties of life

> like the myriad examples of our dearmost Vaisnava forefathers like the

> Pandavas, Dhruva, Prahlada, vrajabasis, etc., etc., etc. They are certainly

> devoted and respectful of their respective gurus to the highest degree in

> their heart of hearts, but they do not have to make it a public display all

> day long in order to impress someone around them that THEY are REALLY a good

> disciple and will be specially treated and favored by the guru because they

> make such a show of it. This was very prevalent during my stay in the temples

> in the 70's. Little practical work in respective varnas, but a hell of a lot

> of showmanship. Krsna can remain on the tongue and mind of a devotee

> throughout the day and no one need even recognize it. It is said a Vaisnava

> can be undetectable from others around him engaged in all kinds of activities

> but he never forgets for Whom he is engaged.

>

> Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur who wrote the most impressive prayers to

> the spiritual master said, "At least three times a day I should offer my

> respectful obeisances to my spiritual master." This is very nice respect to

> ones guru if done with love. One can do so when one first rises, at midday

and

> before taking rest. At least three times doesn't mean ONLY three times, but I

> think you can get my drift?

>

> When I read the daily activities of Krsna and the Pandavas and so many other

> great pure devotees I find them fully engaged in their respective varnas.

> This, I presume, is because that is the order of all true Vedic spiritual

> masters of their disciples for their ultimate liberation into pure devotional

> service of the Lord, and THAT is what will truly please the spiritual master.

> Show-bottle spiritualism will be of no use.

>

> The true guru also will be fully engaged in some particular engagement and

> have very little time to entertain the ritualistic practices of puja. Out of

> all the hours Srila Prabhupada spent with us the VAST majority were spent in

> private engagement working on his duty - translating the books.

>

> If we all spent more time trying to fulfill our founder acarya's order to

> implement varnasrama-dharma everyday, all day, in every center for every

> devotee, there would be little time or necessity of debating guru issues.

>

> We have the PERFECT siksa guru in Srila Prabhupada. He will be "here" with us

> through his books and instructions for a long, long time, if we want him. The

> emphasis should be on the siksa guru especially when we have an

> uttama-adhikari for EVERYONE to totally depend upon for their transcendental

> knowledge which, ultimately, is the true diksa for everyone. If we are

> concerned with the quality of the initiation ritual diksa guru, for which we

> have obvious reasons to be concerned, get the formality out of the way

quickly

> in organized ceremonial fashion at regular intervals of the year, at

> designated locations, and any prospective disciple candidate who has been

> taking regular siksa from Srila Prabhupada's books and has followed the

> designated requirements of his respective guna and karma can go to the most

> convenient location and get initiated by whichever diksa guru is presiding

> over that particular ceremony. Then the disciple can go back to his or her

> prescribed varna duties and continue their private worship of Srila

Prabhupada

> as they wish.

>

> This may not be the choice of every prospective candidate but it should be

> offered and supported as a legitimate means of obtaining their link to the

> parampara which Srila Prabhupada is still presiding over.

>

> Time must be spent on developing the written and sastric authorized

> qualifications of a diksa guru in order that the standards are widely known

> and understood. This will set proper goals for those aspiring to the divine

> title of true, highly qualified Vaisnava diksa guru. While we can know that

> some great devotees "fall down" and can be rejected as gurus, we certainly

> don't want to encourage that standard. We have all the time in the world.

> Srila Prabhupada got his job done - the Books are here and EVERYTHING is in

> them that we need to go back home back to Godhead.

>

> BTW, could you please just give me three (3) qualifications of the diksa guru

> from sastra? This is not meant as a challenge, I am just curious what

> standards your good self uses in this regard.

>

> ys,

> jd