2Nama-sankirtana preached by Maha Visnu or Lord Caitanya Himself?

[Guest guest]

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I did not mention in my first posting that the original statement, which

inspired this discussion:

 

> "Mahaprabhu established the yuga-dharma through nama-sankirtana. He did it

> throught the medium of Mahavisnu, Narayana, Nrsimhadeva and other

> avataras, all of whom were contained within Himself."

 

was an excerpt from a lecture given by HH Narayana Maharaja, as quoted in

"The True Conception of Guru Tattva", page 29, by Gaudiya Vedanta

Publications, 1999.

 

Your servant,

Madana-mohana das

[Guest guest]

> Therefore, it cannot be that the Hare Krishna mantra gives one a new

> svarupa/position in the spiritual world

 

The very term "new svarupa" sounds self-contradictory to me, as svarupa by

definition is the form in which we eternally serve the Lord in the spiritual

world.

 

> I was just listening to the Issues in ISKCON Reform on Chakra. Lecture 1b

> At the very end, in the question answers period, Ravindra svarupa Prabhu

> says that the idea that your rasa is given to you at a certain time is a

> notion of some sahajiyas. According to Srila Prabhupada, however, it was

> already there in the heart.

 

It is interesting to note, though, that the concept of choosing one's

svarupa or getting from a teacher, advocated by some vaisnava groups as was

mentioned above, seems to be well nourished by the idea that the conditioned

living entities have never been in their relations with Krsna in the

spiritual world and therefore do not have their svarupa yet. To my

understanding, these two theories go hand in hand and breed one another, do

not they?

 

There is a very interesting article "Sri Gurudeva and the Svarupa of the

Jiva" printed in the same publication, "The True Conception of Guru Tattva",

page 21-26, by Gaudiya Vedanta Publications, 1999.

 

This is a discussion on the same topic by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhara

Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Prajna Kesava Maharaja. Both of them, quoting many

sastric references, come to the conclusion that the svarupa of the jiva is

inherent and does not change even under the influence of the most powerful

devotees having different kind of relations with the Lord.

 

Your servant,

Madana-mohana das

[Guest guest]

> It is interesting to note, though, that the concept of choosing one's

> svarupa or getting from a teacher, advocated by some vaisnava groups as

> was mentioned above, seems to be well nourished by the idea that the

> conditioned living entities have never been in their relations with Krsna

> in the spiritual world and therefore do not have their svarupa yet. To my

> understanding, these two theories go hand in hand and breed one another,

> do not they?

 

Exactly and that is why to stop this sahajiya undercurrent Srila Prabhupada

said that both may be true, about the origin of the jiva. So we have to

accept Prabhupada literally.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated Mon, 26 Jul 1999 7:05:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "COM:

Madana-mohana (das) MG (IC - R)" <Madana-mohana.MG (AT) bbt (DOT) se> writes:

 

> One of the references one might quote, that it does not stop at Vaikuntha,

> is:

>

> TRANSLATION

> "Simply by chanting the holy name of KRSNa one can obtain freedom from

> material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare KRSNa mantra one

> will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord.

 

But this, of course,

> does not the least change the main import - pure chanting of the Hare Krsna

> mantra is fully capable of taking one straight to Lord Krnsa's lotus feet

> and granting Krsna-prema.

 

Attaining the Lord's feet need not mean attaining Goloka Vrndavan. Achieving

liberation in Vaikuntha could also be described in the same way.

 

Gerald Surya

[Guest guest]

> I was just listening to the Issues in ISKCON Reform on Chakra. Lecture 1b At

> the very end, in the question answers period, Ravindra svarupa Prabhu says

> that the idea that your rasa is given to you at a certain time is a notion of

> some sahajiyas. According to Srila Prabhupada, however, it was already there

> in the heart.

> Therefore, it cannot be that the Hare Krishna mantra gives one a new

> svarupa/position in the spiritual world

>

> GS

 

Trying to understand and discuss things at a depth which is purely theoretical

without realisation instead of meditating deeply on those things appropriate to

one's realisation (eg. I am not this body - how?) is counter-productive for

spiritual life. This is one lesson given by Lord Chaitanya's describing himself

as a fool.

 

I feel certain you have quoted Ravindra Swarup wrongly, and I have e-mailed him

with your statement along with your quote. Let's await the reply!

[Guest guest]

> Trying to understand and discuss things at a depth which is purely

> theoretical without realisation instead of meditating deeply on those

> things appropriate to one's realisation (eg. I am not this body - how?) is

> counter-productive for spiritual life. This is one lesson given by Lord

> Chaitanya's describing himself as a fool.

 

Perfectly right. After some time it gets a bit unpalatable especially

discussing high level topics which have no explicit sastric references to

our knowledge.

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhus

 

>Trying to understand and discuss things at a depth which is purely

theoretical

>without realisation instead of meditating deeply on those things appropriate

to

>one's realisation (eg. I am not this body - how?) is counter-productive for

>spiritual life. This is one lesson given by Lord Chaitanya's describing

himself

>as a fool.

 

I am under the impression that "soul" is another way of saying "siddha deha"

and its eternal properties are discussed in chapter 2 of Bhagavad-gita and

that it was meant for daily discussion even by neophytes.

 

>

>I feel certain you have quoted Ravindra Swarup wrongly, and I have e-mailed

him

>with your statement along with your quote. Let's await the reply!

 

I doubt he'll answer. This is transcribed from the point of 20 minutes 20

seconds of "Issues in ISKCON Reform" tape 1b from chakra.org:

 

Question: There are other philosophical differences between siddha pranali

and what Srila Prabhupada has envisioned as far as i understand. Just like

the idea that the guru at time of initiation gives you a relationship with

Krishna, rather than that relationship being, you know, .... nitya siddha

krishna-prema sadhu-sanga haya..

 

RSD: At least that is the sahajiya version--the version of the Radha Kunda

babajis that Bhaktisiddanta does not accept. But i think you can also have

siddha pranali diksa without believing that. But the Radha Kunda Babajis and

sahajiyas... if you ask the question "where does bhakti from?" It is not

innate in the heart and your rasa with Krishna isn't eternal, but the whole

thing is given to you by the spiritual master at time of diksa with this

siddha pranali diksa. At least that is one understanding of it. Yes, that is

true.

----END transcription clip

 

Thus Srila Bhaktisiddhanta rejects the idea that one's rasa is ever given. So

the souls who get liberation through ISKCON and end up in Goloka, were

already from Goloka. The svarupa was not a function of chanting harinama in

ISKCON, although it was revived by it.

 

The following statement is exactly what Ravindra-svarupa says Bhaktisiddhanta

is rejecting.

>Like training in anything, it is a progressive business and there is

>an order of learning. But one progresses on towards pure love for Sree Sree

>Radha-Krishna.

Training (sadhana) can only revive a dormant relationship, not teach a new

one. Love of a particular Vishnu-tattva is intrinsic. No one can get trained

for love of Nanda-nandana unless he "fell" from Goloka originally despite his

attempts at Gaudiya-sankirtana or raganuga-sadhana. All other souls can only

develop love for the particular VIshnutattva from whose planet they "fell"

from.

 

 

Similarly Murari Gupta is a descent from Navadvipa onto Bhauma Navadvipa.

Murari Gupta was only aware of his own Hanuman form, but Lord Chaitanya made

him aware of his eternal (pre-existing) Murari Gupta form in

Goloka-Navadvipa. Similarly the householder who Lord Chaitanya met either

descended from Navadvipa or "fell" from there, and Lord Chaitanya knew this.

However, we cannot promise everyone on the street a spot in Goloka through

harinam, unless we have the insight that they originaly "fell" from there. We

can, however, promise Vaikuntha to every sincere practitioner of sadhana

bhakti, if we accept that all souls are intrinsically servants of God.

 

ys

Gerald Surya

[Guest guest]

> I am under the impression that "soul" is another way of saying "siddha deha"

> and its eternal properties are discussed in chapter 2 of Bhagavad-gita and

> that it was meant for daily discussion even by neophytes.

 

Srila Prabhupada translates "soul" for "he" in sanscrit mainly in Chapter two.

Later on it is "atma", as in chapter six, where Srila Prabhupada comments:

(Bhagavad Gita 6.5)

 

"The word atma denotes body, mind and soul - depending upon different

circumstances. In the yoga system, the mind and the conditioned soul are

especially important. Since the mind is the central point of yoga practice,

atma here refers to the mind."

 

i.e. atma is not equivalent to siddha-deha.

 

Srila Prabhupada mentions that many people have mistranslated Bhagavad Gita

into English to give their own ideas. Lord Krishna has lots of practice at

Sanscrit, let Him speak for Himself.

 

> Training (sadhana) can only revive a dormant relationship, not teach a new

> one. Love of a particular Vishnu-tattva is intrinsic. No one can get trained

> for love of Nanda-nandana unless he "fell" from Goloka originally despite his

> attempts at Gaudiya-sankirtana or raganuga-sadhana. All other souls can only

> develop love for the particular VIshnutattva from whose planet they "fell"

> from.

 

Lord Krishna is the source of all incarnations, and anything that attracts

someone to serve Lord Visnu, or other incarnation, is there in Lord Krishna,

PLUS the other qualities as well. Thus there is no dissatisfaction in the

living entity serving Lord Krishna in whatever capacity no matter what his

spiritual taste.

 

THUS the sages in the forest who desired to serve Lord Rama intimately were

FULLY satisfied to serve Lord Krishna as the Gopis. This bears out my point.

 

Lord Krishna is the million dollar incarnation, so everyone is satisfied with

Him, no matter what their mood of service.

 

If you want to use deductive reasoning on the philosophy, accept the basics

first, and then use deductive reasoning to find out which topics are presently

beyone your grasp - that the earth is flat is a good example. You are assuming

you have the capacity to understand the subject matter, but that is leading you

into incorrect deductions.

[Guest guest]

> > I was just listening to the Issues in ISKCON Reform on Chakra. Lecture

>1b At

> > the very end, in the question answers period, Ravindra svarupa Prabhu

>says

> > that the idea that your rasa is given to you at a certain time is a

>notion of

> > some sahajiyas. According to Srila Prabhupada, however, it was already

>there

> > in the heart.

> > Therefore, it cannot be that the Hare Krishna mantra gives one a new

> > svarupa/position in the spiritual world

> >

> > GS

>

>Trying to understand and discuss things at a depth which is purely

>theoretical

>without realisation instead of meditating deeply on those things

>appropriate to

>one's realisation (eg. I am not this body - how?) is counter-productive for

>spiritual life.

 

My sentiments exactly prabhu.I didn't get into this discussion at all

because I felt it was far above the heads of us all.If we listen to Shrila

Prabhupad's lectures or read his books we hardly ever find this kind of

thing.And I certainly never heard my gurumaharaj get into this.Rather we are

supposed to chant our rounds and do nice service.

Discussing this kind of thing is like a child in elementary school tryning

to discuss advanced nuclear physics.

I have often seen that when some devotee would ask about such things that

the lecturer would discourage it understanding that we first better discuss

how to chant attentive rounds.

Instead,as you so rightly say,we should be trying to understand how we're

not the body.WE don't even fully realise this yet.So first things first.

 

>This is one lesson given by Lord Chaitanya's describing himself

>as a fool.

 

Good point.

Another pouint is that all thses things will be revealed and we will achieve

them all by our proper serive mood.

 

atah sri krisna namadi

na bhaved grhyam indriyaih

.........etc etc.

 

 

The name form quality and passtimes of the Lord are revealed to the devotee

because of the latter's service.

 

 

I know a few devotees who would talk about such things.But they were not

necessarily more advanced by doing so.It is all theory and no realization.

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/28/99 5:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

Antardwip.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<< am under the impression that "soul" is another way of saying "siddha deha"

> and its eternal properties are discussed in chapter 2 of Bhagavad-gita and

> that it was meant for daily discussion even by neophytes.

i.e. atma is not equivalent to siddha-deha. >>

 

According to Ravindra-svarupa, the soul is non different from its form, rasas

etc

 

"God and His devotees engage in eternal pastimes of loving exchanges in

spiritual forms that are sheer embodiments of rasa. Such bodies are the

unmediated concrete expressions of spiritual ecstasies. These unceasing,

uninterrupted, ever-increasing variegated ecstasies are nondifferent from the

souls and from the spiritual bodies that bear them."

 

ys

Gerald Surya

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 7/28/99 5:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> Antardwip.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

>

> << am under the impression that "soul" is another way of saying "siddha deha"

> > and its eternal properties are discussed in chapter 2 of Bhagavad-gita and

> > that it was meant for daily discussion even by neophytes.

>

> i.e. atma is not equivalent to siddha-deha. >>

>

> According to Ravindra-svarupa, the soul is non different from its form, rasas

> etc

 

 

This was not written byn Antardwip das, but by mrgreald.

 

Antardwip das

[Guest guest]

>Dear Prabhus

>

> >Trying to understand and discuss things at a depth which is purely

>theoretical

> >without realisation instead of meditating deeply on those things

>appropriate

>to

> >one's realisation (eg. I am not this body - how?) is counter-productive

>for

> >spiritual life. This is one lesson given by Lord Chaitanya's describing

>himself

> >as a fool.

>

>I am under the impression that "soul" is another way of saying "siddha

>deha"

>and its eternal properties are discussed in chapter 2 of Bhagavad-gita and

>that it was meant for daily discussion even by neophytes.

 

Prabhu forgive me if i disagre with you.What is the use of discussing this

elevated subject matter?

Even if one DOES know what one's actual siddha deha is we all have a long

way to go before we reach it.To get there we all have to do a heck of a lot

of chanting and service and SURRENDER.THESE are the things we should be

concentrating on.

 

We DO NOT achieve the goal of life - surrender to Krishna - by DISCUSSING

it.We achive it by service in a surrendered mood and by gettting the mercy

of the Lord and his devotee because of that service.

 

 

atah sri krisna namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jivadau

svayam eva spuraty adah

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

"The name,form,quality and passtimes of Sri Krisna are not

perceivable by the materially contaminated senses.But when the lord is

pleased by the service of the devotee the name form,quality etc are

automatically revealed."

 

In other words it is not something for which we have to extraneaously

endeavor.It comes as we advance.

 

And I beg to differ with you COMPLETELY when you say that these things are

to be discussed even by neophytes.

I would like to know WHO EXACTLY has told you this.I,and I know for

SURE,many devotees have heard VERY MUCH TO THE CONTRARY from their various

gurus in ISKCON.

 

And such matters are NOT discussed in the second Chap. of Bg.You say you are

"under the impression".It is YOUR impression and not the one I have heard

from numerous leading devotees in our society.

 

The idea that we have an certain eternal svarupa is of course always

understood but at this stage detailed discussion is not necessary.

It is premature as some devotees have already said.If we are struggling with

our sadhana and are even still attracted to sex-life and cannot surrendeer

fully to the desire of our guru the talk of siddha deha is most definitely a

waste of time.And any senior devotee in ISKCON will tell you this.Let us

firt perfect our hearing chanting and service mood then after a lot of the

latter MAYBE just maybe we can privately discuss such things with somebody.

 

"Work first samadhi later".Prabhupada was not at all impressed with this

kind of thing.He rather preferred devotees to do nice service and be simple

surrenderd souls.When devotees ever got into elevated discussions he ALWAYS

discouraged it.He broke up the gopi-bhava club in L.A. for example.

Basically what we are trying to say to you prabhu is that if we are not on

the level yet we shouldn't get into it.Sahajyas make this mistake.Their

mistake is NOT that they discuss elevated subject matter.Their mistake is

that they are not yet ready for it.

 

nitya siddha krisna prema

sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi suddha citte

karaye uddhaya

 

"Pure love of Krishna is eternally established in the hearts

of the living entities.It is not something to be gained from any other

source.When the heart becomes purified by hearing and chanting,the living

entity naturally awakens".

 

So we have to concentrate on hearig the glories of the Lord and chant.We are

sadana bhaktis.

 

Interested to hear your reply ESPECIALLY to hear wherefrom you have heasrd

that it is Ok to discuss such things openly even while in the neophyte stage

or is it merely your own assumption.

Your servant and cousin,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/31/99 7:52:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

nitaicandra (AT) hotmail (DOT) com writes:

 

> And I beg to differ with you COMPLETELY when you say that these things are

to be discussed even by neophytes. I would like to know WHO EXACTLY has told

you this.I,and I know for SURE,many devotees have heard VERY MUCH TO THE

CONTRARY from their various gurus in ISKCON.

....

> Interested to hear your reply ESPECIALLY to hear wherefrom you have heasrd

that it is Ok to discuss such things openly even while in the neophyte stage

or is it merely your own assumption.

Your servant and cousin, Nitaicandra das.

Dear Nitai Candra Prabhu,

 

I agree with a lot of your points. However, the ABC's of ISKCON teaching is

in Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita As Is, the very *first* discussion of

the soul is in the **introduction.** And that discussion is specifically in

relation to the idea of eternal svarupa. Most of the points that are being

discussed in the previous posts are found in that first discussion on page 5:

 

1. The "Svarupa" refers to the "relationship" or "constitutional position".

2. The "Svarupa-Siddhi" or perfection of one's constitutional position is

eternal;

3. Every Svarupa is one of five kinds; passive, active, etc.

4. The sadhana process is meant to *revive* the already existing svarupa and

rasa.

 

> And such matters are NOT discussed in the second Chap. of Bg.

 

The same is confirmed on page 12 by the definition of mukti from the

Bhagavatam.

Then on page 18-20 the same concept of eternal svarupa its

*beginningless*-endless function (sanatana dharma) is explained. The idea of

creating a dharma or svarupa by any type of religious practice is explicitly

denied, since svarupa-s are revived.

 

Thus according to these facts, the very concept of introducing a rasa into a

soul is naturally faulty at its root. However, sahajiyas and others who skip

over Gita (as explained by Srila Prabhupada) and 2nd Canto of the Bhagavatam

come up with faulty concepts such as introducing a new rasa through

sadhana-bhakti. Just by reading Srila Prabhupada's *Introduction* to the

Bhagavad-gita properly, one cannot be mislead by this facet of some sahajiya

teachings.

 

Surely, no one would deny that the very beginning of the *introduction* of

Gita counts as subject matter counts as appropriate material for daily

discussion by neophytes. The only thing earlier in the book is the preface.

 

Respectfully

Gerald Surya