Interpretation is at the heart of the ritvik controversy.

[Guest guest]

> He said openly you make a

> >GBC and conduct the mission.

 

Interestingly, some ex-ISKCON neo-GM followers say that ®r…la

Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhup€da never said that and that there is no evidence of

such a statement.

[Guest guest]

> If we did not need a living person, either gurus or sadhus, to explain

> points to us, then all who read Srila Prabhupada's books would come to the

> same conclusions, because the understanding would be clear. But this is

> not the case (or we would not be having this very discussion :-) The

> understanding, inspite of Srila Prabhupada's books, is not always clear.

> Thus the need for people to explain it.

 

But then again, different sadhus explain differently (nasav rsir yasya matam

na bhinnam). Mahajana gurus can define subtle points of dharma (dharmasya

tattvam nihitam guhayam) that may be insrutable to others. Therefore such

rare great souls come from time to time to help us all out.

[Guest guest]

Dear mataji first of all let me tell you that I will never acussed or say

anithing obout the board of RAMANA RETI, but the thruth is that even in

Janmastami,I saw rivtiks giving papers,and PREACHING their dangerous

concoctions,in ISKCON land,so if you dont feel miserable when some people are

spreading this horrible infection there must be something wrong with you,im

not talking about people in the world,im talking about HARE KRSNA TEMPLE,I

know that for you is hard to understand??have you ever meet a rvtik kid??so I

see kids of some new rivtik that just came to alachua,whats your name

prabhujii?? ho! my name is such and such,ho! so nice who is your guru ??SRILA

PRABHUPADA!!! OH yes???when did he give you that name???did you ask him for

initiations??no answer,so is not just know the poor confused prabhupadas

disciples but they want to breed a new generations of rvtiks????I have

nothing against the people,but my only question is why they dont just do

werever concoction they want to do OUT OF ISKCON TEMPLES,the GBC ten years

ago and know says is a dangerous deviation,why dont eliminated from the roots.

If you are a rivtik keep driving down the road to their posthumous quaters

,here in ISKCON we dont allow rvtiks,is that to difficult??is like if im a

guru maharaji o say bava follower and start in giving out papers,and

personally preach to people I garantee you i wudnt last for 1/2 and hour in

ISKCON property,so I dont understand why you are so crude , and try to judge

me ,I talk to rivtiks in my daily life ,hari bol hari bol and thats it but

when I see they act like poison snakes trying to spread the evel

concoction,and the temples authorities just saying,what can we do?? what can

we do??follow the GBC that what they MUST do and give a example to the world

that this nonsense is no gonna be tolerated again in ISKCON is that to much

to ask??.Why we grandisciples cant do guru puja in the temple??bathe their

lotus feet??worship them??why we have to quiet and humbly try to follow

GBC,and feel awkward when our guru visit the temple???What about if

grandisciples act boldly like rvtiks do and start having guru puja in

templo,HO!!!! that is not allow,that will create a big problem for a temple

president,I promes you I will be removed from the temple so fast ,so

sometimes yes I fell frustated that for some things the temple

authorities,allow one thing an are soft with others,actually im speculating

because I never try to do GURU PUJA and dont follow the resolutions,but

belive me I know what the resoult will be,still know we hade ALWAYS one

ISKCON now down the road there is a I R G house iskcon deform group ,in

alachua there are baptis protestans catolics in every block im pretty sure

the catholics dont go to the protestands in their services and start in

taking the congregation from it,ISKCON will do a favor to the rvtiks by dont

allow them in the temple because in ISKCON temples is were they get the

inspiration to go on their daily and sad lives confused thinking they are

rigth,if they go to that sad house,they will not last for a year,they are

like parasites.feeding from ISKCON and at the same time trying to weaken the

inmune sistem of ISKCON by vaisnava aparadha,

yours

premananda goura das

[Guest guest]

Premananda Goura wrote:

>> Also I find the management of RamanaReti compromising with

>> their soft, sentimental approach to aparadis,

 

Please show us some specific *behavioral* examples of your accusations,

instead of just throwing out such insulting labels. The management of New

Raman Reti has shown some of the most mature behavior that I have ever seen

in ISKCON towards the non-conformists. This seems to have resulted in one

of the few ISKCON communities in the world that actually works and which

attracts new devotees of all ages and experience.

 

> some of this

> ritiks are STILL giving out poison propaganda, and very

> proudly walking with their chest swelling by ego, thinking

> their are wining something with out perceiving the ax is

> coming down,

 

Why do you care about their attitudes? There are so many people in the

world who disagree with every one of us and who are quite full of

themselves. If you let that bother you, you'll end up spending all your

time being miserable. It's simply not worth worrying about if someone else

has a "chest swelling with ego". Just look the other way.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>> Can you show a precedent for ritvik gurus from scripture?

>

>What about the concept of a "monitor guru", Srila Prabhupada does mention

>that term.

 

 

What about it? You still have to furnish evidence from shastra because,

obviously, Srila Prabhupada's words can be interpreted variously. You have

to ascertain that your interpretation is correct because you can also have

an incorrect interpretation.

 

>> Bottom line: I will NOT accept that Srila Prabhupada is introducing

>> something unauthorized by scripture.

>

>My bottom line is that a perfect person (A Guru as the sastra generally

>discribed him) can not be created by wishful thinking, appointment, or

vote,

>or any other process, except that he has the actual realization or adhikary

>of a fully surrendered soul. Srila Prabhupada made it very clear to us that

>this was the defect of the Gaudiya Math, they tried to put forward

imperfect

>persons as Acaryas.

 

 

As far as surrender is concerned, there are six items of surrender: (1)

accepting everything favorable for the execution of Krishna consciousness,

(2) rejecting everything unfavorable, (3) considering onself to be fully

dependent on the Lord's mercy, (4) being fully confident of the Lord's

protection, (5) not having any interest separate from the Lord's, and (6)

always considering oneself meek and humble. (These items can be found in the

preface of the Caitanya-caritamrita).

 

The first two items of surrender means accepting everything favorable and

rejecting everything unfavorable. How is that done? By discriminating on

the basis of shastra: tasmac chastram pramanam te karyakarya vyavasthitau /

jnana shastra vidhanoktam karma kartum iharhasi, "One should therefore

understand what is duty and what is not duty by the regulations of the

scriptures. Knowing such rules and regulations, one should act so that he

may be gradually elevated." (Bg 16.24)

 

Our contention is, therefore, that there cannot be actual surrender unless

one's understanding and consequent actions are firmly grounded in shastra.

 

One unspoken assumption in your above remark seems to be that only an uttama

adhikary is a perfect person. This is not true. Both the kanistha

adhikaris and madhyama adhikaris can also be perfect persons, provided they

are fully engaged in the Lord's service.

 

Examples of devotees who are pure but not uttama adhikari:

 

(1) Tapana Misra and Chandrashekhara:

 

CC Adi 7.51 "The Mayavadi sannyasis are all criticizing Your Holines. We

cannot tolerate hearing such criticism, for this blasphemy breaks our

hearts."

[from the purport]

"Although a kanistha-adhikari also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not

competent to stop it by citing sastric evidences. Therefore, Tapana Mistra

and Candrasekhara are understood to be kanistha-adhikaris because they could

not refute the arguments of the sannyasis in Benares."

 

So here, we see that Tapana Misra and Chandrashekhara are regarded as

kanishta adhikaris, even though they are personal associates of the Lord.

 

One of the unique differences here between the kanisthas, madhyamas, and

uttama adhikaris is their ability to present the conclusions of devotional

service on the basis of shastra. This ability is a unique characteristic of

an uttama adhikari: tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabigachet / samit pani

srotrium brahma nistham, "In order to understand the Absolute Truth, one

must approach a bona fide spiritual master. In doing so, one should carry

wood for burning in the sacrificial fire. The spiritual master is fully

engaged in devotional service because he is expert in understanding the

conclusions of the scriptures."

 

The inferiority of the kanistha and madhyama gurus are specifically on this

point of their familiarity with shastra. The kanistha is hardly acquainted

with it, the madhyam adhikari has more developed knowledge (even note the

designation 'madhyama', which specifically mean 'middle'), and the uttama

adhikari's knowledge of shastra is consumate.

 

Still, since it has been demonstrated that a kanistha and madhyama can also

be pure devotees, it means that they can also conform to the standard of

what is a guru as mentioned in the first verse of Nectar of Instruction:

vaco vegam manasa. . . And in the purport of this verse, Srila Prabhupada

makes it very clear that controlling all these senses and urges means

engaging them in Krishna's service. Since it is possible for both kanisthas

and madhyamas to also do this, they can, therefore, assume the duties of a

guru, although they certainly would not be as effective as an uttama

adhikari.

 

>> What is wrong with being servant of the servant of Srila Prabhupada? I

>> will never consider myself directly the servant of Srila Prabhupada, just

>> as much as I would never consider myself to be directly the servant of

>> Krishna. That is more in line with Lord Caitanya's philosophy of gopi

>> bartuh pada kamalayor dasadasa anudasa.

>

>This is wanted, but we have to allow the disciples to become independently

>thoughtful. If we oblidge them to think that their guru is a fully

>self-realized Guru, who is the perfect and absolute representative of

Krsna,

>and whose every act and word is perfectly directed by Krsna, we are asking

>for trouble.

 

 

Respecting one's guru as a representative of the Supreme Lord, and His most

confidential servitor, is the proper behaviour, even if our guru is not an

uttama adhikari. Here is the evidence:

 

*Shastra*

deva dvija guru prajna pujanam (From Bg Ch 17)

 

"Austerity of the body consists in worship of the Lord, the brahmanas, the

spiritual master, and worshipable elders like the father and mother. . ."

 

First point is that the guru must be worshipped, this is a principle in

shastra.

 

*sadhu/acharya*

Now, Lord Caitanya demonstrates HOW to apply this principle:

 

aro prabhu tumi guru ami shishya praya

guru shishye hane namaskara na yuyaya

 

"You are my guru, and I am your disciple. Because you are My spiritual

master, it is not fitting that you offer Me obeisances." (This was spoken by

Lord Caitanya on his first journey to Vrindavan, when in Mathura he met a

Sanodiya brahamana, and found out that he was a disciple of Madhavendra

Puri.)

 

Please note that this was spoken by the Lord on their first meeting, no

opportunity to "test" his qualifications made.

 

One may say that because the Lord is omniscient, He automatically knew that

this brahmana was qualified, so He therefore respected him. This argument

cannot be maintained becase Lord Caitanya offered the same respect to

Ramacandra Puri, who was rejected by Madhavendra Puri.

 

Even though Paramanda Puri, who was also a disciple of Madhvendra Puri, told

the Lord that He need not follow the advice of Ramacandra Puri because he

himself is fallen, the Lord replied, "Why are all of you angry at Ramacandra

Puri? He is expounding the ntural principles of sannyasa life. Why are you

accusing him?" (Antya 8.84) Lord Caitanya refused to take a full meal, even

though requested by others who were His seniors.

 

So, here we see the Lord showing HOW one should apply this principle of

offering worship. Even if one's guru is NOT perfect, he is nonetheless

offered that respect.

 

*Guru*

"The words sadhur eva, "he is saintly," are very emphatic. They are a

warning to the nondevotees that because of an accidental falldown a devotee

should not be derided; he should still be considered saintly even if he has

accidentally fallen down. And the word mantavyah is still more emphatic.

If one does not follow this rule, and derides a devotee for his accidental

falldown, then one is disobeying the order of the Supreme Lord. The only

qualification of a devotee is to be unflinchingly and exclusively engaged in

devotional service."

 

So, here we are given a warning about disrespecting a devotee who, by

mistake or accident, manifests imperfect behaviour. Furthermore, Srila

Prabhupada here confirms that if by accident one does make some error, if he

is exclusively engaged in devotional service, then he is still be respected.

Of course, if he maintains that behaviour, then that means he is not fully

engaged in devotional service and is therefore disqualified to be a

spiritual master. Otherwise, even if there are some faults (i.e., guruji is

not a perfect person), they are to be overlooked.

 

So, we can see from guru, sadhu and shastra, that a guru, no matter what his

position (kanistha, madhyama, or uttama) is to be regarded and respected as

the most confidential servitor of the Lord.

 

You raise the doubt as to how we can offer respect to a guru who is not at a

very high stage of realization? The answer is that we do so by adhering to

the injunctions of shastra. Then, even though such respect is offered,

since this is offered out of respect for shastra, we avoid developing

personality cults.

 

Srila Prabhupada had one time said that his only ciriticism of his disciples

was that they did not read his books. So, now you know why we have so many

personality cults--because people are not reading (at least reading

carefully) Srila Prabhupada's books. Because they do not know shastra,

their surrender is exclusively reposed in a person instead of in shastra.

As such, whenever a guru falls down, the disciples of such a fallen guru

loose faith in Krishna consciousness.

 

So, if you want to do away with personality cults and minimize casualties,

give people the real thing--train them in shastra. Even if there are so

many devotees who are unwilling, there are more than enough who are willing

than we can handle. Train people in shastra, and the primacy of shastra,

and your ritvik problems are automatically solved--separate endeavor is not

needed.

 

>I think that you have to admit that the neglect of this point has fueled

the

>rebellion of many to be against Iskcon as it is today. No?

>

What has fuelled the rebellion is a faulty understanding of what is duty and

what is not duty. To close this text, I would like to point out that I have

cited references from shastra, sadhu, and guru to support the thesis that

(1) a kanistha and madhyama adhikari can also be a pure devotee, and as

such, are qualified to be guru; (2) whether or not a guru is an uttama

adhikari, he should be offered all respect as the most confidential servitor

of the Lord; and (3) that an attitude that the guru is somehow inferior is

never to be maintained.

 

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das

 

P.S. I have yet to see any sort of defence of a ritvik-ish interpretation

(non-GBC or otherwise) that is supported from guru AND sadhu AND shastra.

 

if ($guru && $adhu && $hastra) {

print "Correct understanding!";

} else {

print "Incorrect understanding.";

}

[Guest guest]

>>so if you dont feel miserable when some people are

spreading this horrible infection there must be something wrong with you>>

 

I don't understand why you're making this personal. All I asked you to provide

were behavioral examples of your vague accusations. Let's try to stick with

the issues and not sink to the level of insults.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Hari bol AGTSP,and GURU MAHARAJA obviously you are taking it personally

because the point is that you said to me; you're gonna end up being

miserable, and; why do you care about their attitudes??why? don't you

care??ISKCON atmosphere must be of love and trust, how can you love someone

you cant trust?,this rvtiks are suing ISKCON and we have tolerate insult

after insult, still all of us have been very understandable,and trying to

help the poor unfurtunate confused devotees.

so if you said why you care??well our spiritual master said we have to

dislike the virus not the individual who has it,so at least if ISKCON is

still giving them the mercy of still allowing them to come to ISKCON

land,they should be at least more decent of respecting the GBC orders,and not

spread this concoction in any bodys ears,by doing what they are still doing

now ten years after this kalirtvtik virus start spreading in ISKCON,dont you

think at least they should approach ISKCON in a humble state of mind? I feel

sad because usually this is not the type of dealings I have with my

god-sisters please forgive me if I have offended you and I appreciate if you

are going to post this into a public forum to please include the whole letter

I wrote and not just publicly chastise me without going to the point, why you

just print what you take personally??why dont you print the whole letter you

said show proof of behavior'' and I write a letter saying many things about

what's happening and you just print something so you can reprimand me ??The

fight is not with you dear mataji is with the rvtiks,so don't waist your

energy trying to fight with me use your energy to fight the aparadis of our

GURU MAHARAJA.

your servant

premananda goura das

[Guest guest]

>>the point is that you said to me; you're gonna end up being

miserable, and; why do you care about their attitudes?>>

 

If you demand that every person prove their ISKCON loyalty by being miserable

every time that someone disagrees with them, this society would be a very

miserable place. Why not focus on the things you do agree on, e.g. the

beautiful festivals, the Deities, Prabhupada's mercy etc? Do you really

think it's favorable to your Krsna Consciousness to spend so much time and

energy being upset about what everyone else may be thinking or believing?

 

Of course we should speak up if we're in a philosophical debate or if we watch

anyone abusing another human being. However, life's too short to worry about

everyone else's attitudes.

 

What impresses me the most about New Rama Reti is how so many devotees can

find common ground, celebrate the beautiful aspects of KC together as a

community, and not get all bogged down in policing everyone else's attitudes.

But if that's what you want, I would think there'd be no shortage of ISKCON

communities that would operate much more closely to your ideal model.

 

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

hari bol whats your trip of saying things like policing do you live in a

comunity been infested by rivtiks??Many of us weve been living here for 10

years,what do you know??all I know is that untill this rvtiks show up here

there was a diferent atmosphere,they contaminated the flow of KC ,you said if

you demand that every body feel miserable,I say you mother,dont you fell

miserable by seen some sincere devotees been deviated from ISKCON??well we

suposed to be a family,you are the one waisting my time trying quarrel with

me ,instead of focusing in the main point that is that ISKCON authorities are

still leting loose rivtiks wandering here and there,poisoning people in our

comunity,so you ask for proof I wrote about that and you dont even let many

devotees know,whats actually hapening with the obscure IRG im sorprise so

please if you are not gonna stik to the point just dont write to me,you didnt

mention anithing about the issue we are discussing RVTIKS poisoning people in

iskcon propierty.so please stik to the point

premananda goura

[Guest guest]

> This is wanted, but we have to allow the disciples to become independently

> thoughtful. If we oblidge them to think that their guru is a fully

> self-realized Guru, who is the perfect and absolute representative of

> Krsna, and whose every act and word is perfectly directed by Krsna, we are

> asking for trouble.

 

Three years ago Trivikram Maharaj said on class that if guru alowed his

disciples to think that he is God he would fall down. Actually from

garnddisciple point of view i remember such apotheosis of HKS in Poland,

That time devots were divided in two categories, namely HKS disciples and

others. Now we eat of that fruits.

[Guest guest]

> This is wanted, but we have to allow the disciples to become independently

> thoughtful. If we oblidge them to think that their guru is a fully

> self-realized Guru, who is the perfect and absolute representative of

> Krsna, and whose every act and word is perfectly directed by Krsna, we are

> asking for trouble.

 

> Ys TS

 

I can humbly say, that after six years being trained by Trivikram Maharaj i

understood this point, because at the early 90s i was preached that whatever

Guru says is always perfectly right and you have to listen without doubting

because he is fully selfrealized. So Trivikram Maharaj not only is saying

but has been training his diksa and siksa disciples as independently

thoughtful at least for six years. And for your information i put fragment

of his letter below not to misunderstand *independently thoughtful* with

*free thinker*.

 

>Regarding this point about temple devotees losing their independence, yes

>it

>is true that we have have to give up mental specualation, a habit that we

>have been cultivating since time immemorial. To do this requires training,

therefore in the Vedic culture from the age of five a boy is sent to the

ashram of the guru to be trained to accept the sadhu, sastra and guru as

guide. In the West of course we have no such conception, and instead think

that to be a free thinker is the ideal. Srila Prabhupada used to say that

this so called freedom is really only the freedom to go to hell.

 

So Iskcon has the thankless task of trying to train people, who have for the

most part, already been spoiled by their "run away" mind. Naturally for such

people it appears that independence is being lost, but actually one who

agrees to take this training becomes free. Free in the sense that they

become aware of the choice between Maya and Krsna, and by choosing Krsna

they exercise their only real choice. Others are simply slaves of their mind

and senses.

 

>Of course those who give this training have to be the most exemplary in

>their conduct, and must show the process of following the authority of

>guru,

>sadhu, and sastra very strictly in their own life.

 

To train sb in KC requires galoons of blood. I bow down to the lotus feet of

those rare souls who dont spend their galoons of blood for sex life, but

give proper training in KC to fallen souls.

 

Hare Krsna

ys dvd

[Guest guest]

>What impresses me the most about New Rama Reti is how so many devotees can

>find common ground, celebrate the beautiful aspects of KC together as a

>community, and not get all bogged down in policing everyone else's attitudes.

>But if that's what you want, I would think there'd be no shortage of ISKCON

>communities that would operate much more closely to your ideal model.

>

>

 

When you have a huge festival where many hundreds of devotees congregate,

it seems unfortunate to obsess on the few who are determined to pursue an

unfortunate philosophical perspective. I also suspect it might be unfair to

expect the management to make a big scene out of it in the middle of this

celebration especially when considering how the vast majority of devotees

were preoccupied with glorifying Krsna and Srila Prabhupada and not in

monitoring the activities of a few malcontents.

 

But as a general principle, I agree that ISKCON property should not be used

to propagate philosophical perspectives not endorsed by the GBC, who

Prabhupada choose as the final abritrator in such affairs for his ISKCON

society.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

This is the 3er or 4 big festival in wich rivtiks still do their

nonsense,why??because they simply dont respect the board ,they dont respect

the GBC what to speak about a small temple board,if the board is more strict

and no so leniant then at least probably the rvtiks will keep their obscure

preaching out side ISKCON,nobody is specting for the board to be in the

middle of janmastami worring about what the devotees are doing,but they know

still happen and they still allow this to happen like if is not

important,mayavadi philosofy is very dangerous still we letting this

mayavadirivtiks do thieir durty job,this unfortunate philosophical

prospective like dear stita says sounds so weak,it is mayavadi it is

dangerous and must be stop.

second;if appears like im obsess is not for what they do ,is WERE they do

it,justOUT OF ISKCON,thats all im asking,just like to this child

molesters,they are expell from ISKCON and put on probation if they want to

ever touch ISKCON property,if they can do that,why not to rivtiks that dont

care about GBC rulings??is that to much to ask??

 

premananda goura das

[Guest guest]

At 15:43 -0800 9/19/99, COM: Premananda Gaura (das) JPS (Alachua, FL - USA)

wrote:

>

>they are expell from ISKCON and put on probation if they want to

>ever touch ISKCON property,if they can do that,why not to rivtiks that dont

>care about GBC rulings??is that to much to ask??

 

It's a little more complicated than that. The GBC did initially vote to

expell them, but then withdrew that decision. Now, a Calcutta judge has

prohibited the GBC from expelling anyone until a decision has been made in

the court case. For more information, you can contact someone on the GBC

defense team.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> >> That is why we need a LIVING guru, LIVING saintly people, etc., to help

> us

> >> understand.

> >

> >But what if there is no LIVING guru or, or LIVING saintly person that is

> >able to perfectly present what Srila Prabhupada or the sastra says

> >without some influence of impure INTERPRETATION?

> >

> >I believe that this was situation that Srila Prabhupada faced before he

> >departed, that there was no one of his disciples or Godbrothers who was

> >without some tinge of personal desire, therefore he didn't select any one

> >person as Acarya, but left us, in essence, an Acarya Board (ie the GBC).

> >

> If an impure person is not capable properly understanding, then many

> impure people together will also be incapable of understanding because

> there is no such thing as "group purity". If the acaryas are impure, then

> how are they "acarya"? What to speak of having a board of them. . .

 

Srila Prabhupada did say that,"Individually I don't have much faith in any

of you, but collectively I do". And this has been practically demonstrated

over the last 22 years. So many leaders have fallen away but the GBC, and

thus the mission, remain.

 

> We could also ask why Srila Sarasvati Thakura did not appoint our Srila

> Prabhupada as his successor. Does that mean Srila Prabhupada was

> unqualified? Of course not. In other words, this argument is not

> relevant because we see that in analogous situations even qualified people

> are not appointed.

 

But in a letter to Rupanuga dated: 28th April 1974, Srila Prabhupada said:

 

"If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to

be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed

away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea

was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said

openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the

members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would

be automatically selected."

 

> If we did not need a living person, either gurus or sadhus, to explain

> points to us, then all who read Srila Prabhupada's books would come to the

> same conclusions, because the understanding would be clear. But this is

> not the case (or we would not be having this very discussion :-) The

> understanding, inspite of Srila Prabhupada's books, is not always clear.

> Thus the need for people to explain it.

 

As Bhakti Vikasa says:

 

"But then again, different sadhus explain differently (nasav rsir yasya

matam na bhinnam). Mahajana gurus can define subtle points of dharma

(dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam) that may be insrutable to others.

Therefore such rare great souls come from time to time to help us all out".

 

Ys TS