HELP! Please give your conclusive thoughts on this intricate

[Guest guest]

>[Text 2637265 from COM]

>

>> Again, finding a recognized maha-bhagavata to officially take shelter of

>> will not make the reality of our daily struggle within the conditional

>> world evaporate.

>

>I agree but only one thing is that we will be in safe hands. Means if we

>will be sincere then our progress will be guaranteed. But if we have a

>madhyama or kanishtha even if are sincere we may not progress above a

>particular point (like Prabhupada says in NOI).

 

 

 

I would add that if we are sincere, our progress is always gaurenteed. For

instance Bivamangala Thakur -- Krsna inspired him through someone much less

than a recognized mahabhagavata. Krsna, being God, makes all appropriate

arrangements for His devotees.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

> I would add that if we are sincere, our progress is always gaurenteed. For

> instance Bivamangala Thakur -- Krsna inspired him through someone much

> less than a recognized mahabhagavata.

 

But he got a pure devotee, Somagiri as his diksha guru who knew that exalted

position of Bilvamangala Thakur and gave him the name Lilasuka. Cintamani,

the prostitute was his vartma-patha-pradarsaka guru but he achived the

ultimate realization of Radha-Krsna lila through the mercy of Somagiri.

 

Your servant,

Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

Then surely we will also be protected accordingly. Krsna is always there to

offer His help.

 

 

 

 

>[Text 2638238 from COM]

>

>> I would add that if we are sincere, our progress is always gaurenteed. For

>> instance Bivamangala Thakur -- Krsna inspired him through someone much

>> less than a recognized mahabhagavata.

>

>But he got a pure devotee, Somagiri as his diksha guru who knew that exalted

>position of Bilvamangala Thakur and gave him the name Lilasuka. Cintamani,

>the prostitute was his vartma-patha-pradarsaka guru but he achived the

>ultimate realization of Radha-Krsna lila through the mercy of Somagiri.

>

>Your servant,

>Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

>

>Some senior devotees feel that if we are sincere but our guru is madhyama or

>kanishtha still our progress will not be checked because in ISKCON

>Prabhupada is there to take us back to Godhead. What do all the assembled

>Vaisnavas feel about this? Let's discuss.

 

 

While I admit being a tad bit argumentative with some of these points, your

above point reminds me of a number of very strong ISKCON devotees who have

had to deal with, and sometimes more than one, sub-standard diksa

initiation gurus.

 

I think our conversation might be wandering again towards the topic of what

it means to take siksa and diksa initiation.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

> Personally, I am somewhat more concerned with what it is that my heart

> desires, than in Krsna's ability to allow me to enter into a relationship

> with Him.

>

> ys,

>

> Sthita

 

Perfect! Before entering in Radha Krsna affairs i'd like to fully engage in

preaching and qualify to enter into Sri Sri Nitay-Gauranga dancing party.

We want release from material anxiety, but if we voluntary take the headacke

of anxiety to push this Movement forward, and carry till end of our life,

then our advancament is certain and future is bright, because this is SP

desire.

 

ys dvd

[Guest guest]

>because it is Krsna's desires that we approach Him by that method.

 

exactly, it is Lord Krishna's desire that we approach Him by *that* method.

 

speculations are not allowed in spiritual life.

 

ys, bb

[Guest guest]

Dear Nayana Ranjana Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. All

glories to ISKCON.

 

> All acaryas had living uttama-adhikari gurus (either diksha,

> siksha or both). So whether this feeling that even if our guru is madhyama,

> Prabhupada will help us to fulfil that deficiency and take us back to

> Godhead is valid or not. Because there dosen't seem to be any precedent in

> the sastra as far as I know. Hence if you ask my personal opinion I would

> tend to think that even though we have Srila Prabhupada as our param guru,

> still we need to hear from a living uttama-adhikari maha-bhagavata in ISKCON

> (not outside) as our siksha guru by taking permission of our diksha guru or

> accept that uttama-adhikari himself as our diksha guru if don't have one.

> But I am not very sure about this point. I wanted to ask this question for

> some time now. The floor is open for discussion, so dear learned vaisnavas,

> for the enlightenment of a fallen person like me, please give us your

> conclusive thoughts on this intricate point.

>

 

> Nayana-ranjana das

 

Srila Prabhupada explains in CC Antya 5.84

 

The Krishna Consciousness movement is creating PURE, EXALTED Vaishnavas even

from those born in families considered lower than those of Sudras.,,, By the

grace of the Supreme Lord, one can be completely purified , become a preacher

of Krishna Consciousness, and become the spiritual master of THE ENTIRE WORLD.

This principle is accepted in all vedic literature.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains In CC Antya 4.102-3

 

Purport: Sanatana Gosvami clearly defines herein the bonafide spiritual master

of the world. The qualifications expressed in this connection are that one

must act according to the spiritual injunctions and at the same time preach.

One who does so is a bonafide spiritual master. Haridas Thakura was the ideal

spiritual master because he chanted on his beads a prescribed number of times.

Indeed, he was chanting the holy name of the Lord three humdred thousand times

a day. SIMILARLY, the members of the Krishna Consciousness movement chant a

minimum of sixteeen rounds a day, which can be done without difficulty, and at

the same time preach the cult of Caitanya maha Prabhu according to the gospel

of Bhagavadgita As It Is. ONE WHO DOES SO IS QUITE FIT TO BECOME A SPIRITUAL

MASTER FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD.

 

Here is the definition of Jagadguru as per Srila Prabhupada. There are many

disciples, grand disciples and even new Bhaktas under shelter who fit this

definition of Srila Prabhupada. We can go to any one of them, some of them who

ever is nearby and hear to them and take association. It is very sad that some

of us do not understand the greatness of ISKCON movement. Some of us think

think that we must hear from only uttama adhikari maha bhagavata in ISKCON and

there is no body after Srila Prabhupad left and so we have to go ouside ISKCON.

The point is Srila Prabhupad felt otherwise.

 

A jagadguru is not one who already has thousands or millions of devotees. He

may only have one disciple or no disciple but he is FIT to be a jagadguru but

the conditioned souls may not accept him.

 

Most of the devotees while reading Vaishnava literature and Srila Prabhupad's

books always confuse first person (I), Second Person (You). and Third person

He/She). In the above quotes I must understand the above definition of

bonafide Vaishnava Guru fits second person (You, Nayana Ranjana Prabhu) and

third person (all the other vaishnavas on this conference and outside this

conference), and as far as I am concerned I am the most fallen, wretched

conditioned soul.

 

Also, a uttama Adhikari descends to madhyama Adhikari level to preach. So what

ever one is seeing in any preacher (including Srila Prabhupada) is only

symptoms of madhyama Adhikari if at all one can percieve. So even if some

uttama Adhikaris have come or will come in our movement as this is a preaching

movement one can see only madhyama symptoms. We may never know who is a Uttama

Adhikari as we may perceive him as some mentally imbalanced person or crazy

person, just like most of the materialistic people think we hare krishnas are

some crazy people. But Srila Prabhupada could see the members of ISKCON who fit

the above definition are FIT to become spiritual masters of the entire world.

 

Please correct me if this understanding of mine is wrong.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.

Singapore.

[Guest guest]

>So even if

> some uttama Adhikaris have come or will come in our movement as this is a

> preaching movement one can see only madhyama symptoms. We may never know

> who is a Uttama Adhikari as we may perceive him as some mentally

> imbalanced person or crazy person, just like most of the materialistic

> people think we hare krishnas are some crazy people. But Srila Prabhupada

> could see the members of ISKCON who fit the above definition are FIT to

> become spiritual masters of the entire world.

 

Perfect! We are mission meant for preaching. How we know Srila Prabhupada

was uttama? He could conquer sleep and other bodily neccesaties, etc. But

how we know, what some devotee who presents himself as madhyama, kanistha or

even karma-kandis do in his inner life? We know example of Pundarika

Vidhyanidhi. ARE WE READY to accept self eflougent acarya whon can be of 10,

20, 30 years old and coming from low class family? are WE ready?

[Guest guest]

Dear Stitha dhi muni prabhu,

 

PAMHO AGTSP.

 

>

>Personally, I am somewhat more concerned with what it is that my heart

>desires, than in Krsna's ability to allow me to enter into a relationship

>with Him.

>

 

All glories to your understanding prabhu.This makes so much sense doesn't it

prabhu.How can Krishna NOT help the sincere soul no matter what position he

is in.As my own gurumaharaj often says "Ultimately we pay for our own

ticket".In other words no matter how advanced or sincere our guru(s) are if

we aren't up to scratch we won't make it.Look at how many Prabhupada

disciples have fallen down. But no matter how insincere everyone is around

us if we are sincere Krishna will arrange everything according to what we

deserve.To suppose otherwise is simply unphilosophical and it contradiicts

the notion of an all powerfuil,knowing,merciful and loving deity.Sincerity

is our best guarantee.

 

Your servant and cousin,

 

Nitaicandra das.

 

____

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[Guest guest]

> Perfect! We are mission meant for preaching. How we know Srila Prabhupada

> was uttama?

 

We know Srila Prabhupada is Uttama as it is confirmed by his most intimate,

confidential, bonafide disciples. This is the way of understanding things as

it is. This is called parampara system. Shastra is also there to support this

that he is the Senapati Bhakta of Caitanya Maha Prabhu. Usually by will of

Krishna this is not revealed during the presense of the Uttama. Everything is

kept confidential. Krishna (Time ) reveals this in the course of time. Just

like Caitanya Maha Prabhu is Krishna Himself was kept confidential or covered

(Cannavatara) during His presense. Only His most intimate and confidential

associates knew this but it was kept a secret from a common man until He

finished His pastimes and returned back.

 

Krishna (Time I am) reveals everything in the course of time. Right now we do

not have to worry much about all these things. All we have to do NOW is simply

follow the parampara system and try to understand things through the parampara.

*If* we do so Srila Prabhupada assures, one day we will come face to face with

Krishna. Of this there is no doubt.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.