Interpretation is at the heart of the ritvik controversy.

[Guest guest]

> > He said openly you make a

> > >GBC and conduct the mission.

>

> Interestingly, some ex-ISKCON neo-GM followers say that ®r…la

> Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhup€da never said that and that there is no evidence

> of such a statement.

 

On the otherside I have heard that actually they did create a working

committee but it failed to function properly and was given up.

[Guest guest]

>> >> That is why we need a LIVING guru, LIVING saintly people, etc., to

help

>> us

>> >> understand.

>> >

>> >But what if there is no LIVING guru or, or LIVING saintly person that is

>> >able to perfectly present what Srila Prabhupada or the sastra says

>> >without some influence of impure INTERPRETATION?

>> >

>> >I believe that this was situation that Srila Prabhupada faced before he

>> >departed, that there was no one of his disciples or Godbrothers who was

>> >without some tinge of personal desire, therefore he didn't select any

one

>> >person as Acarya, but left us, in essence, an Acarya Board (ie the GBC).

>> >

>> If an impure person is not capable properly understanding, then many

>> impure people together will also be incapable of understanding because

>> there is no such thing as "group purity". If the acaryas are impure,

then

>> how are they "acarya"? What to speak of having a board of them. . .

>

>Srila Prabhupada did say that,"Individually I don't have much faith in any

>of you, but collectively I do". And this has been practically demonstrated

>over the last 22 years. So many leaders have fallen away but the GBC, and

>thus the mission, remain.

 

 

An unspoken assumption here is that if one has not (grossly) fallen down,

one is properly situated. Not true. For example, in India there are many

sampradayas and religious sects that also strictly adhere to the 4

regulative principles. Examples of this would be Jains and Mayavadis in the

line of Sankaracarya. The 4 regulative principles are a starting point, but

they are insufficient to determine whether one's understanding is proper,

because we can see that there are many who follow the 4 regs but whose

understanding is improper.

 

Therefore, in light of the reference you have cited (wherever it may exist),

your interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's statement cannot be taken as proof

of "group purity". Shakaracarya's sampradaya is continuing by the group

efforts of his descendents, does that mean their understanding is,

therefore, correct?

 

>> We could also ask why Srila Sarasvati Thakura did not appoint our Srila

>> Prabhupada as his successor. Does that mean Srila Prabhupada was

>> unqualified? Of course not. In other words, this argument is not

>> relevant because we see that in analogous situations even qualified

people

>> are not appointed.

>

>But in a letter to Rupanuga dated: 28th April 1974, Srila Prabhupada said:

>

>"If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to

>be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed

>away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea

>was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said

>openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the

>members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya

would

>be automatically selected."

 

 

Since we accept that the movement can go on, somehow or other, with or

without a "self-effulgent acarya" (if things are done in a proper manner),

the process of continuing the movement (WITH the correct understanding) must

be independent of the presence of "self-effulgent acaryas". There are other

sampradayas who, to this day, are bona fide. In India, you can meet genuine

sadhus of other bona fide sampradayas. In those sampradayas, it is not that

every acarya is Ramanujacarya, yet their line continues. From time to time

a self effulgent acarya comes, but then what do you do in the meantime? And

since the self effulgent acarya IS an acarya, he is necessarily teaching by

his example, which means he is setting an example, by his behaviour, how to

be Krishna conscious, and that means he is also demonstrating HOW the

non-self effulgent acaryas should conduct the mission.

 

>> If we did not need a living person, either gurus or sadhus, to explain

>> points to us, then all who read Srila Prabhupada's books would come to

the

>> same conclusions, because the understanding would be clear. But this is

>> not the case (or we would not be having this very discussion :-) The

>> understanding, inspite of Srila Prabhupada's books, is not always clear.

>> Thus the need for people to explain it.

>

>As Bhakti Vikasa says:

>

>"But then again, different sadhus explain differently (nasav rsir yasya

>matam na bhinnam). Mahajana gurus can define subtle points of dharma

>(dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam) that may be insrutable to others.

>Therefore such rare great souls come from time to time to help us all out".

>

So, do as Srila Prabhupada has done. In his books, he cites references from

shastra, and sadhu, as well as guru. And he does this liberally.

 

Maharaj, no offense intended, but I have yet to see you quote from shastra

and previous acaryas to support your theses. Srila Prabhupada does that,

why shouldn't we?

 

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das

[Guest guest]

> This essential point of being 'soft' on Ritviks is costing

> Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON a fortune in court costs and wasted

> time. When the ISKCON opposition is soft the ritviks gain

> confidence and push harder and do more damage. The main author

> of the faked FO paper, Yaduraja here in England, says that it

> would be better if ISKCON were completely destroyed so that

> they could sart again with ritvikism.

>

> Are we going to wait until the Ritviks destroy everything

> before we finaly wake up and get tough just as Srila

> Prabhupada would sometimes do?

>

> Or are we going to slump in sentimentalism and watch all hell

> let loose?

>

> We need to keep our ISKCON house ritvik clean, water tight.

>

> ys

>

> ada

 

> Dear mataji first of all let me tell you that I will never

> acussed or say anithing obout the board of RAMANA RETI, but

> the thruth is that even in Janmastami,I saw rivtiks giving

> papers,and PREACHING their dangerous concoctions,in ISKCON

> land,so if you dont feel miserable when some people are

> spreading this horrible infection there must be something

> wrong with you,im not talking about people in the world,im

> talking about HARE KRSNA TEMPLE,I know that for you is hard to

> understand??have you ever meet a rvtik kid??so I see kids of

> some new rivtik that just came to alachua,whats your name

> prabhujii?? ho! my name is such and such,ho! so nice who is

> your guru ??SRILA PRABHUPADA!!! OH yes???when did he give you

> that name???did you ask him for initiations??no answer,so is

> not just know the poor confused prabhupadas disciples but they

> want to breed a new generations of rvtiks????I have nothing

> against the people,but my only question is why they dont just

> do werever concoction they want to do OUT OF ISKCON

> TEMPLES,the GBC ten years ago and know says is a dangerous

> deviation,why dont eliminated from the roots. If you are a

> rivtik keep driving down the road to their posthumous quaters

> ,here in ISKCON we dont allow rvtiks,is that to difficult??is

> like if im a guru maharaji o say bava follower and start in

> giving out papers,and personally preach to people I garantee

> you i wudnt last for 1/2 and hour in ISKCON property,so I

> dont understand why you are so crude , and try to judge me ,I

> talk to rivtiks in my daily life ,hari bol hari bol and thats

> it but when I see they act like poison snakes trying to spread

> the evel concoction,and the temples authorities just

> saying,what can we do?? what can we do??follow the GBC that

> what they MUST do and give a example to the world that this

> nonsense is no gonna be tolerated again in ISKCON is that to

> much to ask??.Why we grandisciples cant do guru puja in the

> temple??bathe their lotus feet??worship them??why we have to

> quiet and humbly try to follow GBC,and feel awkward when our

> guru visit the temple???What about if grandisciples act boldly

> like rvtiks do and start having guru puja in templo,HO!!!!

> that is not allow,that will create a big problem for a temple

> president,I promes you I will be removed from the temple so

> fast ,so sometimes yes I fell frustated that for some things

> the temple authorities,allow one thing an are soft with

> others,actually im speculating because I never try to do GURU

> PUJA and dont follow the resolutions,but belive me I know what

> the resoult will be,still know we hade ALWAYS one ISKCON now

> down the road there is a I R G house iskcon deform group ,in

> alachua there are baptis protestans catolics in every block im

> pretty sure the catholics dont go to the protestands in their

> services and start in taking the congregation from it,ISKCON

> will do a favor to the rvtiks by dont allow them in the temple

> because in ISKCON temples is were they get the inspiration to

> go on their daily and sad lives confused thinking they are

> rigth,if they go to that sad house,they will not last for a

> year,they are like parasites.feeding from ISKCON and at the

> same time trying to weaken the inmune sistem of ISKCON by

> vaisnava aparadha, yours

> premananda goura das