Reply to IWM statement by Guru Krishna das...

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Dear Basu Gosh prabhu and Company:

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupad.

 

Please drop my out of this conversation. You already have enough

big guns and heavy hitters in here. You certainly don't need me.

Additionally, for the next two months I am in the middle of nego-

tiating with city officials for our new project here and then

raising the money so I won't have time to read and respond to all

these texts. Thank you for being kind on me and letting me out of

this one. (After a number of tours of duty on the GBC executive

committee a little respite seems not unreasonable to request.)

 

This is in no way a comment on the value of the discussion you are

having. It is a statement more to the degree of my physical limita-

tions.

 

Your servant, Badrinarayan dasa

 

 

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DATE: 11/14/99 5:11 PM

 

RE: Reply to IWM statement by Guru Krishna das...

 

 

[Text 2779069 from COM]

 

> X-Sender: afn39393 (AT) pop3 (DOT) afn.org

> Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:14:52 -0500

> <news (AT) chakra (DOT) org>

> Guru-Krsna das <afn39393 (AT) afn (DOT) org>

> for CHAKRA

> Cc: HH <Vipramukhya.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>, HG <Ajamila.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

>

>

> "Western civilization has broken the quality of shyness that

> was essential in preserving the dignity and virtue of women."

> -- His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

>

>

> IS MY VOICE ALSO NEEDED?

> (A response to "Your voice is needed:

> A statement by the ISKCON Women's Ministry")

>

>

> IWM wrote:

>

> "We should understand that these gross aparadhas against Vaisnavis in one

> of ISKCON's main temples stand as testimony for the need on the part of

> all ISKCON temples to end--once and for all--the abuse and neglect, both

> material and spiritual, of women."

>

> Has the worldwide population of ISKCON devotees yet been informed as to

> what ACTUALLY happened? Allegations aside--what actually "gross aparadhas"

> and what actual "abuse and neglect" have been committed there and

> elsewhere throughout "all ISKCON temples"?

>

>

> "We propose a four-fold remedy: Insure that women have full facility: 1)

> to engage in all types of service"

>

> But this contradicts the Vedic standards and Srila Prabhupada's teachings:

>

> Equal rights is not allowed in the Vedic sastra. (Bg 16.7: Hawaii, 2/3/75)

> Equal rights is not Vedic idea. (SB 1.8.51: Los Angeles, 5/13/73)

> That is not Vedic civilization. (SB 7.9.24: Mayapur, 3/2/76)

> Equal rights is nonsense. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

> Equal rights is claimed by rascal Westerners. (Morning Walk: Ahmedabad,

> 9/25/75)

> Rascals give equal rights. (Morning Walk: Los Angeles, 6/27/75)

> Equal rights is rascaldom philosophy. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "2) to take darsana of the Deity up close"

>

> What does this mean? How close? Will space be allowed for sannyasis to

> greet Their Lordships according to the standard way? Wasn't proximity to

> the Deity the very point of contention that led to the recent controversy?

> How would this adjustment solve the problem?

>

> And what about the quality of shyness? Does the IWM endorse--or

> disparage--shyness in women? Srila Prabhhupada wrote:

>

> And shyness is a check to the unrestricted mixing. It is nature's gift,

> and it must be utilized. (SB 1.10.16p)

>

> There is one quality of shyness. If you break that shyness of woman, it

> will be very dangerous. It will be very dangerous. That is the one...to

> check. (Lecture: SB 1.7.43, Vrindavan, October 3, 1976)

>

>

> "3) to give Bhagavatam and other classes,

>

> Srila Prabhupada has taught:

>

> Kapiladeva was a brahmacari, and his mother took lessons from Him. That is

> the male prerogative. (TLK Chapter 5 page 43)

>

> Here Kapiladeva in a brahmacari dress, and mother is taking lesson from

> the son. Now, sometimes it is asked, "How the mother will take lesson from

> the son?" That is the prerogative of the male. (Srimad-Bhgavatam 3.25.5-6

> Bombay, November 5, 1974)

>

> ("Prerogative": "Exclusive or special right, power, or privilege;")

>

> Why should IWM object if the management of Vrindavan prefers to organize

> according to this bona fide "male prerogative"?

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "Until ISKCON authorities acknowledge their obligations to provide women

> with these four basic facilities, incidents like these will continue to

> occur."

>

> Herein IWM declares something to be an oligation upon ISKCON authorities

> and also declares what "will" happen if these four facilities are not

> granted. On who's authority does the IWM speak so?

>

>

> "Anything short of this will convince devotees that discussions are simply

> cosmetic and only intended to patronize...

>

> What devotees will be convinced? Why does IWM say who will or will not be

> convinced? In other words, what does this statement actually mean?

>

>

> "...ladies 'who are incapable of true spiritual advancement and

> realization.'"

>

> Who is being quoted here? What Vaisnava would say that ladies "are

> incapable of true spiritual advancement and realization" ?

>

>

> "Further the absence of these facilities is the loudest testimony to the

> fact that women are often neither respected nor cared for."

>

> Another bold statement--can IWM verify it?

>

>

> "Providing these facilities fosters respect."

>

> But what about respect for sannyasis and brahmacaris? Srila Prabhupada

> wrote:

>

> Brahmanas and Vaisnavas should be accepted as earthly representatives of

> Narayana. (SB 3.16.12P)

>

> Of all classes of men, the brahmanas and the Vaisnavas should be given

> special protection. They should be worshiped. (SB 3.16.23P)

>

> If the authorities or the leaders of society do not give special respect

> to the brahmanas and Vaisnavas and do not offer them not only sweet words

> but all facilities, then the path of progress will be lost to human

> civilization. (SB 3.16.23P)

>

>

> Beyond that, of the five sectors of society to be protected, the woman

> class is *not* actually the foremost:

>

> The defenseless creatures, according to Brahma-samhita, are the cows,

> brahmanas, women, children, and old men. Of these five, the brahmanas and

> cows are especially mentioned in this verse because the Lord is always

> anxious about the benefit of the brahmanas and the cows... (SB 3.16.10P)

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "Violation of women, as exemplified in the outrages in Vrindavan..."

>

> What are the factual findings of specific violations and outrages? Can IWM

> verify these allegations? We have read radically opposite versions of what

> actually transpired.

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "...Every devotee needs to be able to go on pilgrimage to Vrindavan to

> take shelter, to be peaceful, and to be assured of protection within our

> very temple room."

>

> We are happy to know this, since "every devotee" obviously includes

> sannyasis and brahmacaris. And thus we wonder why the IWM has not equally

> censured the women in Vrndavana who (allegedly) infringed upon the needs

> of the brahmacaris and sannyasis to also "be peaceful, and to be assured

> of protection" (i.e. spiritual protection) within the temple.

>

>

> "Vrindavan ISKCON must be exemplary. Now it is a shame and a disgrace."

>

> I humbly ask the IWM why and how Vrindavan is now "a shame and a

> disgrace."

>

>

> "Unfortunately, ISKCON's Vrindavan center (and, indeed, other ISKCON

> centers in India) have long been seen as seats of intolerance--and at

> times even hatred-- toward women in our movement. Such unacceptable

> attitudes have been manifest in the denial to women of many facilities

> needed for their spiritual and material well-being."

>

> In a Bhagavad-gita purport, Srila Prabhupada explains that it was "not out

> of hatred for women" that Lord Caitanya denied them certain

> facilities--e.g., the facility to come near Him. And we question the IWM's

> qualification and right to decide what is or is not a needed facility.

>

>

> "If we acknowledge the depth of the problem in ISKCON's center in

> Vrindavan, then we see it is necessary to consider serious steps to

> correct these anomalies."

>

> What exact "depth of problem" are we supposed to acknowledge?

>

>

> "These may well lie at the root of the hatred of women..."

>

> This is quite a serious accusation, so I humbly request the IWM to be

> specific. Please tell us who in Vrindavan hates women.

>

>

> "We hope that further discussions of Vaisnava behavior are held and that

> an apology be made to the women who were physically manhandled."

>

> And we hope that those discussions will include the proper behavior and

> attitude that women should adopt when in the presence of Vaisnavas. We

> also hope that the women who blatantly disobeyed the temple authorities,

> causing them to enforce "strict disciplinary action," will apology for

> their offenses. And again we wonder why this global appeal by the IWM is

> so slanted.

>

>

> "We request that qualified women be given the opportunity to give

> Srimad-Bhagavatam classes in Vrindavan. In addition, women with

> organizational abilities, should be invited onto managerial teams in

> Vrindavan."

>

> I humbly submit that instead of delving into international managerial

> policy, the IWM should instead be conducting seminars on chastity,

> shyness, cooking, sewing, homely arts, etc., as instructed by Srila

> Prabhupada:

>

> Prabhupada:...Woman...Girls should be taught how to become faithful wife,

> how to learn nice cooking, cleansing, dressing....They have got natural

> inclination to give service by cooking, cleansing, dressing.

> (Conversation: Bombay, January 8, 1977)

>

> A woman's real business is to look after household affairs, keep

> everything neat and clean, and if there is sufficient milk supply

> available, she should always be engaged in churning butter, making yogurt,

> curd, so many nice varieties, simply from milk. The woman should be

> cleaning, sewing, like that. (Letter to: Chaya dasi, Feb 16, 1972)

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "When women are respected in these tangible, practical ways abuse

> automatically declines."

>

> Indeed, when women are respected abuse automatically declines. As for "in

> these tangible, practical ways," we request IWM to verify that statement.

> I propose differently, both from my own (male) perspective and from the

> teachings of Srila Prabhupada:

>

> This shyness is a gift of nature to the fair sex, and it enhances their

> beauty and prestige, even if they are of a less important family or even

> if they are less attractive. We have practical experience of this fact. A

> sweeper woman commanded respect of many respectable gentlemen simply by

> manifesting a lady's shyness. (SB 1.10.16P)

>

> It is a lady's shyness--not her passion to participate in the male

> sphere--that commands a gentleman's respect. Why does the IWM *not*

> conduct seminars and courses primarily and mostly in stri-dharma? Why does

> it instead advocate for and facilitate women to act contrarily to the

> Vedic standard?

>

>

> So Bhismadeva also advised that the shyness of woman, lajja, is the

> control. If you break that shy, what is called, shyness, then there will

> be disaster. That is the control valve naturally given. And woman's

> shyness is one beauty, beauty. (Lecture: SB 5.6.4, Vrndavana, November 26,

> 1976)

>

> If we care about our preachers--sannyasis, vanaprasthas, brahmacaris, and

> restrained grhastas--then we must protect them also. Why should Vaisnavis

> "be invited onto managerial teams in Vrindavan," thus forgoing womanly

> shyness and risking their own and others' spiritual downfall? Or is it no

> longer dangerous to perform another's duty?

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "This has been practically demonstrated."

>

> By whom, when, and where? I humbly request the IWM to document this.

>

>

> "Unfortunately, in the name of 'protecting' the women men have taken

> opportunities to degrade and disrespect women. Therefore continuing that

> course will not be effective."

>

> Agreed. But what are the statistics, please? How, and when, and where, and

> what percentage of devotee men have taken or still are taking

> "opportunites to degrade and disrespect women?"

>

> And does IWM also recognize this fact?: In the name of past abuse--whether

> real or exaggerated--many women now clamor for equal social status, thus

> contravening Vedic principles of varnasrama-dharma.

>

>

> IWM continued:

>

> "Therefore we now look to Gopala Krsna Maharaja to see that men in

> Vrindavan receive education about properly respecting women..."

>

> And we look to His Holiness and all leaders of Vrndavana and ISKCON at

> large to teach and preach the essential aspects of stri-dharma and the

> necessity for ladies to cultivate chastity, shyness, submissiveness, and

> satisfaction in their natural womanly functions.

>

>

> "...and that he insures women are given all facilities for their Krsna

> consciousness."

>

> We also look to Maharaja and all mature Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis alike to

> not be swayed by emotional appeals by ladies ambitious to achieve

> artificial equality within ISKCON. Rather, devotees must remain fixed in

> the mission of Srila Prabhupada to spread Vedic culture, or

> varnasrama-dharma (which includes stri-dharma), not only in Vrindavan or

> India but all over the world.

>

> And we humbly look to His Holiness Gopal Krsna Gosvami to especially

> consider the following letter written to him by His Divine Grace Srila

> Prabhhupada, our beloved founder-acarya of this wonderful ISKCON:

>

> "Why there are so many women in Vrindaban? Vrindaban is meant for

> retirement, elderly persons in Krishna Consciousness can devote all their

> time to devotional service. Such men are wanted to live in Vrindaban, not

> women and children. That is a fact, the holy dhamas are meant for the

> sannyasis and brahmacaris especially. If necessary, the management must be

> done by sannyasis and brahmacaris, not grhasthas." (Letter to: Gopala

> Krsna, Los Angeles, 9 June, 1976)

>

>

> Thank you very much.

> Hare Krsna.

>

> Sincerely, your aspiring servant of the servant of the servants of ISKCON,

> guru-krsna das

>

>

 

 

 

 

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