Important

[Guest guest]

> There's a videotape of Srila Prabhupada in which he gives the

> main symptoms of the Age of Kali as "unnecessary talks and

> fighting." That's politics: "I know what's best for this

> society!" "No you don't: *I* know what's best! Bla bla

> bla..." And in the midst of this quarrel, the real human

> right--i.e. the right to liberation in Krsna

> consciousness--disappears, because our energy is fully

> expended on barking like dogs over whose abstract, conditioned

> political model is the best.

>

> When someone tells me that because I have some temporary

> designation-- "ISKCON leader" for example, but it might as

> well be "man" or "woman"-- therefore I am obliged by his

> abstract political conception to relinquish my freedom from

> the kind of unnecessary talks and fighting that are so

> prominent on COM these days...and therefore I am obliged to

> stay in tune with every new controversy coming down the

> cathode ray tube...and to get all worked up over those

> phosphorescent letters dancing across my display screen...and

> to TAKE A STAND...and to MARCH BEHIND THE BANNER...and to

> SHOUT SLOGANS...and to DO IT FOR ISKCON...and FOR

> PRABHUPADA...and all that bla bla bla...well, I consider that

> an attack on my own natural right of human liberty, which I am

> by God's law supposed to exercise toward liberation by keeping

> my hearing, reading and speaking fixed upon transcendental

> topics.

 

What a breath of fresh air!! At last a pleasing scent of

'philosophical perspective' has been eloquently breathed into

this never-ending discussion on 'rights'. Thank you Maharaja.

 

The 'rights' issue is like a tar baby: You even look at it and

you're stuck to your opponent, entangled in one-upmanship,

instead of preaching 'disentanglement'.

 

While discussion on various issues cannot be totally avoided

Srila Prabhupada's mission would be better served if the

'majority' of our energy is spent on preaching rather than at

each other.

 

Hoping not to get entangled about not getting entangled.

 

ys

 

ada

[Guest guest]

>

>

> What if an Iskcon TP's wife serves him prasadam before she takes any

> herself, will Vipramukhya Maharaja and the EC issue a directive condemning

> him for accepting such "preferential treatment"???

> Ys TS

 

Here is an example of preferential treatment. In the old NV days, Kirtananada

would authorise buying shaving cream for the men, but not shampoo for the

women. I am sure that is the type of stuff the GBC is talking about.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/15/99 8:30:22 PM Pacific Standard Time,

Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<

>

> What if an Iskcon TP's wife serves him prasadam before she takes any

> herself, will Vipramukhya Maharaja and the EC issue a directive condemning

> him for accepting such "preferential treatment"???

> Ys TS

 

Here is an example of preferential treatment. In the old NV days,

Kirtananada

would authorise buying shaving cream for the men, but not shampoo for the

women. I am sure that is the type of stuff the GBC is talking about. >>

 

Yes, Maharaja's rhetorical question about a TP's personal family's dining

arrangements is, respectfully, beside the point. If the same TP ordered that

the Sunday feast would not be served to women untill after the men had

finished, the situation would be intolerable and should be corrected by the

GBC. It would promote dissention, foster injustice, and would ruin our

preaching efforts.

 

I do not know specifically what happened at Krishna Balarama temple, but the

situation should be arranged so all the devotees are happy, peaceful and

satisfied. Even if some the men in question were only concerned that some

women were bent on defying a policy directive from the designated temple

authorities, it should be clear by now that the policy was ill-advised. If

the women devotees were more involved in the process of formulating such

policies, directly concerning aspects of their devotional lives such as being

able to take darshan during temple functions, such mistakes would probably

occur less often.

 

But what is worse is that it sounds like there was a familiar anti-woman

animus that motivated some of what went on (like the old days when some men

were actually spitting at female devotees, I have heard). I don't believe

that the sannyasis on whose behalf this policy was ostensibly being

instituted really wanted this to happen or approve of the consequences. Some

younger, overzealous men must be to blame. Several years ago on pilgrimage

in Vrindavana, my wife witnessed a brahmacari sharply slap her friend's hand

because this woman had reached for the ghee lamp being passed among devotees.

The woman reaching for the lamp had no idea that she was transgressing any

etiquette by not waiting until the lamp had first been passed among the men,

and of course she was shocked and upset.

 

Krishna-Balaram temple is host to so many pilgrims from all over the world.

The devotees there have to be trained to be hospitable to all the visitors,

and cannot expect them all to follow or even be aware of the local etiquette

(assuming that it ever were the local etiquette). If we really see women

as our mothers, and the foreign visiting women as guests, how is it possible

that they can be treated this way after travelling in many cases thousands of

miles to attend temple functions before the predominating Deities there?

[Guest guest]

> I do not know specifically what happened at Krishna Balarama temple, but

> the situation should be arranged so all the devotees are happy, peaceful

> and satisfied.

 

 

I was wondering again why Lord Caitanya allowed the women to climb up on His

shoulders to see Lord Jagannatha? And also, why didn't Lord Caitanya demand

that the namacarya, Haridasa Thakur, be allowed in the temples?

 

It seems that sometimes we lose focus of the potency of the Holy Names as

devotional service and tend to become overly attached to showing off

ourselves in front of the Deity form of the Lord.

 

"One who worships the Deity in the temple, and does not show respect to

others is a devotee on the material platform, in the lowest stages of

devotional service." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.29.21

 

"In the Srimad-Bhagavatam there is no recommendation of pancharatriki

worship because in this Kali-yuga, even without Deity worship, everything

can be perfectly performed simply through hearing, chanting, remembering and

worship of the lotus feet of the Lord." S.B. 7.5.24

 

"...in Kali-yuga, worship of the Deity is being neglected. Therefore

chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra is more powerful than Deity worship.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu set a practical example in that he did not establish

any temples or Deities, but He profusely introduced the sankirtan movement.

S.B. 7.14.39.

 

"...so any neophyte devotee who simply gives his attention to the

arca-murti, the form of the Supreme Lord in the temple and does not respect

other living entities is uselessly worshiping the form of the Lord in the

temple....A devotee should see that Krsna is present in everyone's heart as

Paramatma; therefore every body is the embodiment or the temple of the

Supreme Lord, and as such, as one offers respect to the temple of the Lord

he should similarly properly respect each and every body in whom the

Paramatma dwells. Everyone should therefore be given proper respect and

should not be neglected." Bg 9.11

 

 

If some guys are so attached to arca worship so as to become violent to

women there is definitely something wrong. Forming a "human chain" of guys

in a temple? Most of the time ISKCON acts like polished Hinduism, but this

isn't even polished.

[Guest guest]

>

> I do not know specifically what happened at Krishna Balarama temple, but

the

> situation should be arranged so all the devotees are happy, peaceful and

> satisfied. Even if some the men in question were only concerned that

some

> women were bent on defying a policy directive from the designated temple

> authorities, it should be clear by now that the policy was ill-advised.

If

> the women devotees were more involved in the process of formulating such

> policies, directly concerning aspects of their devotional lives such as

being

> able to take darshan during temple functions, such mistakes would

probably

> occur less often.

 

Hare Krsna:

Please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

On my understanding on what happened Krishna Balarama temple, the

implicated ladies where almost all western initiated devotees, please

correct me if I am wrong, so diferents things must be taken to think about:

# We all know that the proper vaisnava etiquette gives place first to male

devotees and then ladies.

#Being pacient is a good quality

# Every time any person go to a place he/she must have a look for the rules

of the place, is not as in the early 60's when flower power people were

feeling free to do anything they feel, and even in those times, that people

were thinking on not bothering neighbourhoods (sp?). So when we are

visiting a temple (any temple I mean but specially in the Holy Dham) we

have to be very carefull to behave as it suposse to do.

>

 

>

> Krishna-Balaram temple is host to so many pilgrims from all over the

world.

> The devotees there have to be trained to be hospitable to all the

visitors,

> and cannot expect them all to follow or even be aware of the local

etiquette

> (assuming that it ever were the local etiquette).

 

I am very sorry to disagree with this point, if you visit a place and you

don't know the rules from that place and you break them, then the local

manager will come to you and advise you wich are the rules, then if you

still break them, they will invite you to leave the place, if you still

insist to break them or not leaving the place you will be taken by force

for disturbing. If the ladies involve didn't knew that they have to leave a

place for Senior and Sannyasis to offer their obeisances to greet the Lord,

I will really suspect of something being untruth, most of those ladies are

western inititated devotees, so WE all know that we must keep distance from

Sannyasis, brahmacaris, and if for any reason ladies cann't find there

proper space on the Temple they can complain somewhere else but starting a

fight in front of the Lord, and even filming it is really embarrasing.

 

If we really see women

> as our mothers, and the foreign visiting women as guests, how is it

possible

> that they can be treated this way after travelling in many cases

thousands of

> miles to attend temple functions before the predominating Deities there?

 

Everybody must have the right to attend darshan of the Lord, but even Lord

Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught us by the example that ladies must

keep very far away, material distance, from him, even thought mercy for all

ladies also came.

 

The point here is being deviated, is very well know for enough people how

some women are trying to get the place of men, the first instruction that

we receive from Srila Prabhupada is that we are not this body, but because

we have a body, we must act according to it. So if women don't like women

body the very well know what to do to change it for next life, but in this

life anyone must learn to be happy wich his achievements, and use it the

best to go back to Godhead. The point is not how much more influence can I

have, how much more close can I be in front of the Lord, how much higher

position do I have, this is a movement for developing CONCIOUSNESS for God.

So if I am back in the program but my heart is really close to the altar

then that is good conciousness, then a bit later during the day, I can come

again to the Temple and have a FULL darshan of the Lord. Is just the

mentality to be a humble servant, or the mentality that I WANT...

 

Please I don't meant to offend anyone with this mail, just is my humble

point of view who is feeling pain with all the fighting that are involving

our belove ISKCON. I am even writing for myself. I don't believe that Srila

Prabhupada is happy with all these things happening.

 

Lets try to change our mentality, stop criticieng Srila Prabhupada's books,

better read them more, and follow the instructions given in them, chant

more rounds of japa, with better conciousness.

 

your humble servant, Sridhari devi dasi