free speech supported when these things are said about Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

Mahananda and Nayana-ranjana Prabhus expressed objections to one of the

conference organizers regarding DKdd's comments:

 

Tue, 19 Oct 99 12:15 -0400

Mahananda1 (AT) aol (DOT) com <Mahananda1 (AT) aol (DOT) com>

Topical Discussions <topical.discussions (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Re: NOOOOO contradictions in Prabhupada's writings? - 3

 

In a message dated 10/19/1999 11:50:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Dvaipayana.Vyasa.RSD (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

> > Anyway I am quitting this conference because I just can't tolerate

>such belittling of our > >founder-acharya.

 

> > Your servant,

> > Nayana-ranjana das

 

> Is this a formal request to be removed

 

 

Dvaipayana.Vyasa

 

You do your job so well. May I make a humble request? Why don't you

moderate the blasphemous comments of those who would dare to make the

remarks about Srila Prabhupada in the first place that would cause sincere

souls to vacate such a condemned environment? Why don't you have in your

rules "no criticizing the pure devotees"? Then your moderation would

actually serve the highest good, rather than making sure no one quotes

Srila Prabhupada too extensively, etc.

 

I request that devotees that think that this permissive attitude that

allows this blatant depicting of our founding acarya is such an offensive

light--write to the overseers of COM itself, in the hopes that bringing it

to their attention will end this great slap in our beloved guru's face. To

hear from several devotees in protest will get their attention.

 

I am afraid the poor girl who was concerned that her postings getting out

to the wrong persons is going to realize her worst fears because these

words, now posted publicly about our beloved master, may very well become

the topic of concern in many quarters of our movement,

 

regretfully,

 

Mahananda dasa

 

Mahananda Prabhu was then kicked off the TD conference by Madhusudani Radha

devi dasi and others left on their own volition:

 

Tue, 19 Oct 99 10:09 -0800

"COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)"

<Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Topical Discussions <topical.discussions (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

re. Maha

 

Just wanted to let you both know that I'm going to make Mahananda

"distrusted". His constant threats and put downs are getting old and he's

received plenty of warnings. Below he is threatening Dhy with ISKCON

sanctions *and* manages to put her down "poor girl" in one fell swoop.

 

It's obvious that this is not the correct forum for him. I guess he'll

still be able to have these discussions on com.org, but at least he won't

be able to intimidate the bbt.se members. Texts like his can have a

chilling effect on free speech.

 

Madhu

 

Tue, 19 Oct 99 10:22 -0800

"COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)"

<Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Mahananda1 <Mahananda1 (AT) aol (DOT) com>, Discussions <topical.discussions (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

decision

 

 

> I request that devotees that think that this permissive attitude that

 

> allows this blatant depicting of our founding acarya is such an offensive

>light--write to the > overseers of COM itself, in the hopes that bringing

>it to their attention will end this great > slap in our beloved guru's

>face. To hear from several devotees in protest will get their

> attention.

 

This is a threat

 

>I am afraid the poor girl

 

Dhyanakunda Prabhu is a gorwn woman. Don't belittle her. (this is not

necessarily a rule violation, just wanted to let you know)

 

>I am afraid the poor girl who was concerned that her postings getting out

>to the wrong >persons is going to realize her worst fears because these

>words, now posted publicly about >our beloved master, may very well become

>the topic of concern in many quarters of our >movement,

 

>regretfully, Mahananda dasa

 

This is an intimidation attempt.

 

Taken together with your many recent texts in which you have put down or

threatened other members (telling them they're offensive, that they're

ruining their spiritual lives, requesting others not to associate with

 

them etc), your position is becoming very clear. You can not tolerate other

people's having opinions that are different from yours or their using their

own brains. You do not even want them to have a forum or voice where they

can discuss their understanding with each other. This is called

intolerance.

 

Although other people may see Prabhupada as more of a human being and less

"God-like" than you do and they may feel that he has made mistakes about

material matters, without feeling that this detracts from his ability to

give us Krsna, *you* have taken it upon yourself to judge that this

constitutes an offense, that your view of Prabhupada is the only right one

and that everyone else is a blasphemer.

 

Regretfully, you leave me no other option but to remove you from this

conference. You have received numerous warnings and been given the benefit

of the doubt more times than any other member. You know what the conference

rules are, and in spite of your assurances to the contrary, it appears

obvious that you have no intention of following them. It's obvious that

this is not an appropriate forum for you. Fortunately, there are many

other forums where you will feel more comfortable. Best wishes.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/18/1999 8:31:03 AM Eastern Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

> "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)"

> <Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> Topical Discussions <topical.discussions (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> re. Maha

>

> Just wanted to let you both know that I'm going to make Mahananda

> "distrusted". His constant threats and put downs are getting old and he's

> received plenty of warnings. Below he is threatening Dhy with ISKCON

> sanctions *and* manages to put her down "poor girl" in one fell swoop

 

 

I wouldnt mind hearing a few examples of these so called threats or put

downs. It is all a distrasction to divert attention away from her continual

promotion of what has become a trend to minimize our beloved spiritual

masteer...Mahananda dasa

[Guest guest]

>>It is all a distrasction to divert attention away from her continual

promotion of what has become a trend to minimize our beloved spiritual

masteer...Mahananda dasa>>

 

Please share some of those texts with us in which I minimized Srila Prabhupada

and please cc my Guru Maharaja on them too.

 

Thank you.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/18/1999 7:46:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

> >>It is all a distraction to divert attention away from her continual

> promotion of what has become a trend to minimize our beloved spiritual

> master...Mahananda dasa>>

>

> Please share some of those texts with us in which I minimized Srila

> Prabhupada

> and please cc my Guru Maharaja on them too.

>

> Thank you.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

My dear Prabhu, thank you for your reply. Actually, I have started off on the

wrong foot here accusing you and have not taken the time to address the issue

with you properly and respectfully. Obviously, I have some issues with you

about how we should or should not discuss a pure devotee, how we should speak

of him, and what is improper when we are referring to the life and behavior

of a cent percent pure devotee who is Krsna's confidential servant. So I am

going to assume that you are indeed a sincere devotee and maybe have been

misunderstood in your statements that you have made about such things as

Srila Prabhupada's books being sexists, etc., and will begin from that

assumption of innocence and present to you some of the things that have led

me to come to the conclusion that you have minimized our beloved guru. I beg

your forgiveness for my digressions in the past and hope that from here we

can progress in a way that would be pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and a better

example to other devotees. I will indeed present to you some of the

controversial statements made by your good self concerning Srila Prabhupada.

respectfully, Mahananda dasa

[Guest guest]

At 20:46 -0800 11/18/99, Mahananda1 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

>

>So I am

>going to assume that you are indeed a sincere devotee and maybe have been

>misunderstood in your statements that you have made about such things as

>Srila Prabhupada's books being sexists,

 

This is one of the problems of people pulling quotes out of contexts. I

don't think that's what I have ever said. I'm assuming that you are

referring to a discussion that took place on Hridayananda Maharaja's

conference for devotee scholars almost two years ago. As part of this

discussion, different devotees in academe were complaining that current

publishing standards by various professional organizations didn't fit with

the language used in Srila Prabhupada's books. For example, if you use

"non-sexist language" as defined by the publication manual of the American

Psychological Association (which is a requirement in that field) you have

to use either "he or she" or the plural form "they" when referring to

people in general. Anything else is considered "sexist" and as not meeting

their standards. I believe that the sociological and anthropological

professional organizations have similar definitions. This does not mean

that anyone else outside of academe would find this use sexist, nor does it

mean that I or any other devotees have stated that Prabhupada's books are

sexist. We're not talking about the common use of that word, simply its

usage in academe, because that's what the discussion was about. And this is

becoming the standard for literature used in university settings.

 

The second piece of our discussion, which drew a lot of criticism from

those not involved, was the brainstorm that followed about how we could

resolve the problem of Prabhupada's use of the English language being

considered sexist by academic organizations. Please note that at the time

that Prabhupada wrote his books, these standards did not exist and he was

very eager to have university professors use his texts. However, now, due

to changed standards in language use, that is becoming increasingly

difficult. So we were simply brainstorming about different ways that this

problem could be resolved. One such option included changing the pronouns

to fit with currently accepted academic use. Another one was to footnote

the books. A third one (and the one that seems to be the one that's

actually adopted) was to leave Prabhupada's books the way they are, not use

them in settings where they are deemed unacceptable, and to instead have

his disciples and granddisciples write their own books to be used in

universities.

 

As you can see, no solution is perfect. Prabhupada wanted his books to be

used in universities, but because of a technicality that is becoming

increasingly difficult. So what should be done? My suggestion, which has

been widely quoted and misunderstood, was to try to interview those who

best knew Prabhupada's mood. If it was then concluded e.g. that

Prabhupada had not meant simply "he", but rather "he and she" in various

places, that would serve to justify changing the language. If not, we

shouldn't do this.

 

What's ironic is that this started out as a discussion among devotees who

were frustrated because they were unable to use Prabhupada's books in US

universities. They were frustrated because they appreciate him and *wanted*

to share their appreciation with their students. That was the only reason

these options were discussed in the first place. But ever since they were

leaked out of context all over cyberspace, people have twisted them to mean

that some of us did *not* appreciate Prabhupada and simply found him to be

sexist.

 

> I will indeed present to you some of the

>controversial statements made by your good self concerning Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you. I would appreciate an opportunity to respond to any additional

issues and possible misunderstandings.

 

Your servant,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/19/1999 2:33:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,

ekstrand (AT) slip (DOT) net writes:

 

 

>

> This is one of the problems of people pulling quotes out of contexts. I

> don't think that's what I have ever said. I'm assuming that you are

> referring to a discussion that took place on Hridayananda Maharaja's

> conference for devotee scholars almost two years ago. As part of this

> discussion, different devotees in academe were complaining that current

> publishing standards by various professional organizations didn't fit with

> the language used in Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

 

As I think back, my first impression I received was when that devotee wrote

the article on VNN about the VAST texts and you were quoted a few times, as

well as others. Of course, your explanation helps me to hear it from your

side and I can see now how we need to communicate more with each other before

we simply polarize over issues.

 

>From your perspective as a group of academics, as you have explained in your

last reply, I can understand that everything is not always so black and

white. Hoping we can continue communicating. Thank you for your reasonable

reply. Respectfully Mahananda dasa

 

PS Also, I must say I am sorry for making the comment about you, since the

evidence does not prove such an assertion.

[Guest guest]

At 16:27 -0800 11/19/99, Mahananda1 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

>

>From your perspective as a group of academics, as you have explained in your

>last reply, I can understand that everything is not always so black and

>white. Hoping we can continue communicating.

 

I'd like that too.

 

>PS Also, I must say I am sorry for making the comment about you, since the

>evidence does not prove such an assertion.

 

It's OK. Actually I owe you a thanks for giving me an opportunity me to

address this issue. Their has been so many rumors and this assertion has

been festering so long and I don't think that's been good for anyone.

 

Your servant,

Madhusudani dasi