Judge for yourself

[Guest guest]

"COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" <Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se> on 20/11/99

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RE: Judge for yourself

 

 

 

 

[Text 2795339 from COM]

 

 

 

>We are living in a free world where everyone should be alowed to expres

his

opinion and realizations freely even if they may not fit with ours.<

 

Free world???

[Guest guest]

I applaud you for your comments. The free offesnive thinkers make me so sick

I don't even want to comment on them.

 

ys,

 

Isvara dasa.

[Guest guest]

> > > A sincere Vaisnava understands that the path of transcendental

> > > knowledge is completely different from so-called education of the

> > > demoniac society.

>

> Different does not mean mutually exclusive. They are actually so

> different, you can't even place them in opposition , one to the other.

>

> A Chevy car is completely different from the color blue, yet we can

> have a blue Chevy.

 

Nice analogy, if the terms are all unrelated.

Ok, now back to the topic under discussion. Prove that it can be applied to

show how "a sincere Vaishnava on the path of transcendental knowledge" is

not mutually exclusive (as you claim) with "so-called education of the

demoniac society."

 

Mahananda Prabhu has given you some descriptive words to play with on the

education of demoniac society.

> Challenging spirit, arrogance, lack of humility...these are all there in

> the mundane academic atmosphere where materialists approach unqualified

> and sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense gratification.

 

Let's shuffle them around and come up with combinations befitting your blue

Chevy example: "sincere Vaishnava with arrogance", or "sincere Vaishnava

with lack of humility", or "sincere Vaishnava approaches unqualified and

sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense gratification."

 

Still makes sense to you?

 

Goloka Candra dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Nice analogy, if the terms are all unrelated.

> Ok, now back to the topic under discussion. Prove that it can be applied to

> show how "a sincere Vaishnava on the path of transcendental knowledge" is

> not mutually exclusive (as you claim) with "so-called education of the

> demoniac society."

 

Certainly. For instance, there is no example of computer useage in

traditional literature. Computers are the product of "demoniac" society,

and the education of how to use them is "so -called education". It is not

directly Vaisnava literature. Yet we can see that Vaisnavas are using

computers, and availing themselves of that education. so it follow that they

are not mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

>

>

> Mahananda Prabhu has given you some descriptive words to play with on the

> education of demoniac society.

> > Challenging spirit, arrogance, lack of humility...these are all there in

> > the mundane academic atmosphere where materialists approach unqualified

> > and sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense gratification.

>

> Let's shuffle them around and come up with combinations befitting your blue

> Chevy example: "sincere Vaishnava with arrogance", or "sincere Vaishnava

> with lack of humility", or "sincere Vaishnava approaches unqualified and

> sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense gratification."

>

> Still makes sense to you?

>

> Goloka Candra dasa

[Guest guest]

>

> > Different does not mean mutually exclusive. They are actually so

> > different, you can't even place them in opposition , one to the other.

> >

> > A Chevy car is completely different from the color blue, yet we can

> > have a blue Chevy.

>

> Nice analogy, if the terms are all unrelated.

> Ok, now back to the topic under discussion. Prove that it can be applied

> to show how "a sincere Vaishnava on the path of transcendental knowledge"

> is not mutually exclusive (as you claim) with "so-called education of the

> demoniac society."

>

What about Srila Prabhupada? I hope that we all can agree that he was and

is a sincere Vaishnava. He went to a university and took demoniac education

(in order to support his family in the future). Did he become a demon?

 

And what about stoping being so proud and thinking that we are better than

anybody else in the world? And what about instead of demonizing somebody for

going to a karmi university give him a chance to go to a wonderful Vaishnava

university? Where are all those Vaishnava colleges that Srila Prabhupada

wonted? Is ISKCON able to give any kind of education for its members that

will help them later on maintain their families? If we are not supposed to

go out and get the education and some kind of economical basis, and ISKCON

is not able to give education and economical support for its members, are we

supposed to live under a tree and starve. Maybe living under a tree works in

those tropical countries, but over here living under a tree is not a very

pleasant experience, especially when it gets -20 C in the winter.

What about the yukta-vairagya principle? Using everything in Krishnas

service?

If we are only able to see demons everywhere, maybe there is something

wrong with our eyeglasses. As Vaishnavas we are supposed to wear the

trinad-api sunicena glasses and see everybody and everything in conection to

Krishna.

 

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> Trash talking devotees

> Always putting down

> Are so very expert

> At eliciting a frown

>

> How could your post be poetic?

> It lacked rythym rhyme and soul

> Yes, I would prefer football

> To the dogma that is your goal

>

> So if you think you were poetic

> I suggest you reassess

> Not only what is poetry

> But all your "Vedic" mess

 

East is East, West is West

and the twain shall never meet

To the world, Kipling's words rang truest

till Prabhupada came and shattered the myth

 

Alas now, in the very house that he built

There are those who try to show him wrong

Instead of cowering in unbecoming guilt

Now's the time to march, where are the strong?

 

Keeping quiet when guru's defamed, ain't just bad karma

You become party to silent complicity

While loudly berating those preaching the Vedic dharma

Shows you up in shameless duplicity

 

- Goloka Candra dasa -

[Guest guest]

Mahananda Prabhu,

By condescending to answer his arguments, you are again showering your

compassion on somebody who in his last post tried to prove that he is

incapable of distinguishing the difference between the process of acquiring

material knowledge and the process of acquiring spiritual knowledge.

 

Your servant,

Goloka Candra dasa

[Guest guest]

> > Nice analogy, if the terms are all unrelated.

> > Ok, now back to the topic under discussion. Prove that it can be applied

> > to show how "a sincere Vaishnava on the path of transcendental

> > knowledge" is not mutually exclusive (as you claim) with "so-called

> > education of the demoniac society."

>

> Certainly. For instance, there is no example of computer useage in

> traditional literature. Computers are the product of "demoniac"

> society, and the education of how to use them is "so -called education".

> It is not directly Vaisnava literature. Yet we can see that Vaisnavas

> are using computers, and availing themselves of that education. so it

> follow that they are not mutually exclusive.

 

You are cheating on the posted rules which already defined the so-called

education of demoniac society as (I repeat): "approaching unqualified and

sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense gratification". The

qualifier "for sense gratification" is missing in your examples on education

obviously because "Vaisnava" and "sense gratification" are mutually

exclusive.

 

Wanna try again?

 

> > Mahananda Prabhu has given you some descriptive words to play with on

> > the education of demoniac society.

> > > Challenging spirit, arrogance, lack of humility...these are all there

> > > in the mundane academic atmosphere where materialists approach

> > > unqualified and sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense

> > > gratification.

> >

> > Let's shuffle them around and come up with combinations befitting your

> > blue Chevy example: "sincere Vaishnava with arrogance", or "sincere

> > Vaishnava with lack of humility", or "sincere Vaishnava approaches

> > unqualified and sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense

> > gratification."

> >

> > Still makes sense to you?

> >

> > Goloka Candra dasa

[Guest guest]

>

> Keeping quiet when guru's defamed, ain't just bad karma

> You become party to silent complicity

> While loudly berating those preaching the Vedic dharma

> Shows you up in shameless duplicity

>

> - Goloka Candra dasa -

 

 

While defaming the guru is certainly lame, there are some who wish to meditate

on the alleged defamation of others endlessly. Kinda reminds me of the story

of the brahmana and the prostitute.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 23 Nov 1999, Goloka Candra wrote:

 

> Mahananda Prabhu,

> By condescending to answer his arguments, you are again showering your

> compassion on somebody who in his last post tried to prove that he is

> incapable of distinguishing the difference between the process of acquiring

material knowledge and the process of acquiring spiritual knowledge.

>

> Your servant,

> Goloka Candra dasa

 

 

 

Yes, I agree that Mahananda Prabhu's mercy is unlimited! He is certainly a

viable link in the condenscending descending process!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

>

> East is East, West is West

> and the twain shall never meet

> To the world, Kipling's words rang truest

> till Prabhupada came and shattered the myth

 

East is East, West is West

and the twain shall never meet

Til Prabhupad meet Kipling

And that myth he did defeat

 

(just a suggestion)

 

 

>

>

> Alas now, in the very house that he built

> There are those who try to show him wrong

> Instead of cowering in unbecoming guilt

> Now's the time to march, where are the strong?

>

> Keeping quiet when guru's defamed, ain't just bad karma

> You become party to silent complicity

> While loudly berating those preaching the Vedic dharma

> Shows you up in shameless duplicity

>

> - Goloka Candra dasa -

 

Good effort.

 

However:

 

 

According to the Vedas

No sannyasa should cross the ocean

That Srila Prabhupada did so

Has generated a lot of emotion

 

Srila Prabhupada

Myth unmaker

Became the bridge

A new way maker

 

He abandoned the moribound

Broke free from sex and caste

He based the new on quality

Brought spiritual equality at last

 

Some see him

With material eyes

And measure him

With guna eyes

 

They apply the mundane benchmark

Demand he never made a mistake

And any who can't accept that

Over the coals they rake

 

They are expert

At seeing fault

Then they attack

Never do they halt

 

The poor devotees trying to preach

To devotees not yet made

Bear the brunt of this energy

Which throws the sunshine into shade

 

They are told

Not to try make clear

To the outsiders

Why it seems impure

 

But Srila Prabhupada himself

Said Vaisnavas aren't compared

By normal mundane standards

So his disciples should be prepared

 

Material mistakes

Don't limit him

That is hard to see

When faith is slim

 

His glory is in the sampradaya

And his adherence to it's aim

Of passing down the Truth

And all it's glorious fame

 

He sees himself

As a mere peon

A position

I won't flee on

 

He is a wondrous glorious man

Not God nor a messiah either

So stop demanding material perfection

And give us all a breather

[Guest guest]

>

>

> You are cheating on the posted rules which already defined the so-called

> education of demoniac society as (I repeat): "approaching unqualified and

> sinful men for some scientific knowledge for sense gratification". The

> qualifier "for sense gratification" is missing in your examples on education

> obviously because "Vaisnava" and "sense gratification" are mutually

> exclusive.

>

> Wanna try again?

 

I can accept that definition. Can Mahananda? Perhaps I mistook that he was

applying the demoniac brush to all mundane education. In which case I

apologise.

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > East is East, West is West

> > and the twain shall never meet

> > To the world, Kipling's words rang truest

> > till Prabhupada came and shattered the myth

>

> East is East, West is West

> and the twain shall never meet

> Til Prabhupad meet Kipling

> And that myth he did defeat

>

> (just a suggestion)

>

>

> >

> >

> > Alas now, in the very house that he built

> > There are those who try to show him wrong

> > Instead of cowering in unbecoming guilt

> > Now's the time to march, where are the strong?

> >

> > Keeping quiet when guru's defamed, ain't just bad karma

> > You become party to silent complicity

> > While loudly berating those preaching the Vedic dharma

> > Shows you up in shameless duplicity

> >

> > - Goloka Candra dasa -

>

> Good effort.

>

> However:

>

>

> According to the Vedas

> No sannyasa should cross the ocean

> That Srila Prabhupada did so

> Has generated a lot of emotion

>

> Srila Prabhupada

> Myth unmaker

> Became the bridge

> A new way maker

>

> He abandoned the moribound

> Broke free from sex and caste

> He based the new on quality

> Brought spiritual equality at last

>

> Some see him

> With material eyes

> And measure him

> With guna eyes

>

> They apply the mundane benchmark

> Demand he never made a mistake

> And any who can't accept that

> Over the coals they rake

>

> They are expert

> At seeing fault

> Then they attack

> Never do they halt

>

> The poor devotees trying to preach

> To devotees not yet made

> Bear the brunt of this energy

> Which throws the sunshine into shade

>

> They are told

> Not to try make clear

> To the outsiders

> Why it seems impure

>

> But Srila Prabhupada himself

> Said Vaisnavas aren't compared

> By normal mundane standards

> So his disciples should be prepared

>

> Material mistakes

> Don't limit him

> That is hard to see

> When faith is slim

>

> His glory is in the sampradaya

> And his adherence to it's aim

> Of passing down the Truth

> And all it's glorious fame

>

> He sees himself

> As a mere peon

> A position

> I won't flee on

>

> He is a wondrous glorious man

> Not God nor a messiah either

> So stop demanding material perfection

> And give us all a breather

 

I too need a breather.

So you win. Your output is prolific.

 

Goloka Candra dasa

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

This thread has become devoid of any useful Krishna conscious content, no

matter what side you take. Please cease and desist or take it private.

 

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

 

[srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se], or

[srirama (AT) jps (DOT) net] < PLEASE NOTE THIS NEW EMAIL ADDRESS

[http://www.web-construct.net/creditcard.html]

 

 

Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se]

Monday, November 22, 1999 6:42 AM

COM: India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum); COM: Varnasrama

development

Re: Judge for yourself

 

 

[Text 2799126 from COM]

 

>

> > Dear Goloka

> >

> > Apparently English isn't your first language,

>

> aha, here comes a white knight charging in to the defence of his

> accomplices. Question is, where was he when somebody was insulting his

> spiritual master and some others were trying to rationalize it?

 

How wonderful of you to provide an example of trash talking. This is quite

a

good one - all the elements are there. The "white knight" thing and

"insulting

the spiritual master" combine both irrelevnce and insult to my

intelligence.

 

>

> Thanks for the education. So we are agreed on this point - that "trash" is

a

> term in common usage, not only in hi-tech but also in that sacred topmost

> showpiece of American culture - football. Nothing vulgar about the word,

> right? So kindly explain why you and some others are kicking up a fuss

over

> it?

 

The issue was not the vulgarity of expression, rather the vulgarity of the

content.

 

> > As for your put down on the language useage of an entire population,

> > which quality of a devotee were you manifesting there?

>

> Poetic? No?

 

Trash talking devotees

Always putting down

Are so very expert

At eliciting a frown

 

How could your post be poetic?

It lacked rythym rhyme and soul

Yes, I would prefer football

To the dogma that is your goal

 

So if you think you were poetic

I suggest you reassess

Not only what is poetry

But all your "Vedic" mess

[Guest guest]

> If we are only able to see demons everywhere, maybe there is something wrong

> with our eyeglasses. As Vaishnavas we are supposed to wear the trinad-api

> sunicena glasses and see everybody and everything in conection to Krishna.

>

> Ys. Sraddha dd

 

Even demons everywhere!

[Guest guest]

> He is a wondrous glorious man

> Not God nor a messiah either

 

I don't think those who protest SP criticism propose that he was God, nor

did Srila Prabhupada say it for himself. So where does this discussion come

from?

 

So far whether he was a messiah, well, according to random house wester's

dictonary meaning of "messiah" is:

 

"any expected deliverer or savior ".

 

Wasn't Srila Prabhupada an expcted deliverer? Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Himself predicted He will send His senapati bhakta to preach sankirtan

movement in the western world. Srila Prabhupada also mentioned that he was

sent by Lord Krishna. So where is the chance for speculation?

 

> So stop demanding material perfection

> And give us all a breather

 

it will certainly help.

 

ys, bb

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

Sure we are in a free world, but we are not free to reject the reactions of

Daiva netrena that follows by offending a pure devotee.

[Guest guest]

Prahlad Nrsimha das. JPS. wrote:

 

> Namaste.

> Sure we are in a free world, but we are not free to reject the reactions

> of Daiva netrena that follows by offending a pure devotee.

 

Thats for shure, but first there must be an offence there, wich I cannot see

in the particular case.

 

One could see things also in the following way:

 

"In the Vedanta-sutra and other Vedic literatures many lengthy arguments are

refuted in a few words. The length of an argument is not the criterion of

whether it is true or not. Even in the material world we may see an example

of this, for sometimes a single strong fighter may defeat a thousand

soldiers in the battle. In the same way a single strong argument may defeat

thousands of illogical words." From Jiva Goswami's Krsna Sandarbha

 

Why not join the " philosophical battle" in the Topical Discussions

conference and "beat" the oposed party with logical strong arguments rather

by considering the things some may write an "offence" where maybe no offence

is intendet.

Is a grown up child offending his fathers statements by questioning them?

It may want to understand them properly in his own way as it becomes more

and more mature. Like one devotee wrote ones in regard to Prabhupada:

 

"Some disciples would suggest things to Prabhupada when they saw that

something wasn't working or something could be done in a better way. Still,

no one thought that Prabhupada was making mistakes. We just thought that

Prabhupada had the overall plan and adjustments had to be made as the

movement expanded. So many new situations were arising and often Prabhupada

was just responding to suggestions by his GBC in areas where he had no

experience (particularly in western countires)."

 

"I think an equally serious issue is the question of what Prabhupada would

have changed if he still were alive. That is another discussion that will

probably have to go on for the next 10,000 years, at least in the circles of

those who are managing."

 

"I hope no once takes what I have said as offensive. It was written in the

mood that we can be critical and faithful at the same time. I think this

type of thinking will help us mature and make the movement more attractive

and easier to live in."

 

So I think even some statements of Srila Prabhupada would have to be

sometimes readjusted to the time and place we are living in order so they

may not loose their relevance for the time, place and circumstances and our

life of course.

 

Like Hare Krishna Mataji wrote in one comentary:

 

"Maybe we need to distinguish between Srila Prabhupada's Goals, which are

transcendental, and his Methods which may not always have worked.

 

So, maybe we have to have the courage to examine Srila Prabhupada's Methods

and Goals and see what Methods actually work to achieve Srila Prabhupada's

Goals, and in which cases we may need to modify the Methods in order to

achieve the Goals he set for us. I'm not talking about basic standards such

as following the regulative principles, but things which are actually

Methods, and whose effectiveness depends at least to some degree on our

material surroundings, including the material culture that surrounds us."

 

So are all this thoughts and comments an "offence" to a pure devotee like

Srila Prabhupada for which one may get the reactions of daiva netrena?

 

What do you think?

 

Ys, Harsi das