Judge for yourself 4

November 19, 1999

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> De: COM: Isvara (das) GGS (Vrindavana - IN) <Isvara.GGS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> A: COM: Tirtharaj (das) TKG (Brisbane - AU) <Tirtharaj.TKG (AT) bbt (DOT) se>;

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net; COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) <DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM:

India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> CC: COM: ISKCON India (news & discussion) <ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

> Asunto: Re: Judge for yourself 3

> Fecha: Viernes 19 de Noviembre de 1999 14:30

>

> [Text 2792630 from COM]

>

> Reading the offensive statement of this Dhyanakunda dasi, I am surprised

> that even her spiritual master has not disowned her. I wonder what kind

of

> spiritual masters or authorities we have this days. No wander ritviks are

> getting more powerful, and or many devotees flocking to Gaudiya Math. We

> have a serious sickness in our Iskcon movement. Our leader's attempt to

> accomodate the feminists in ISKCOn is causing all these offensive

mentality

> towards our founder acarya.

I had been asking the same question myself. I fully agree with you.

How can we say that ISKCON is the trascendental body of His Divine Grace

Srila Prabhupada?

ys, Sdd

November 20, 1999

In a message dated 11/19/1999 10:51:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Sridhari.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

> >

> > Reading the offensive statement of this Dhyanakunda dasi, I am surprised

> > that even her spiritual master has not disowned her. I wonder what kind

> of

> > spiritual masters or authorities we have this days. No wander ritviks are

> > getting more powerful, and or many devotees flocking to Gaudiya Math. We

> > have a serious sickness in our Iskcon movement. Our leader's attempt to

> > accomodate the feminists in ISKCOn is causing all these offensive

> mentality

> > towards our founder acarya.

>

> I had been asking the same question myself. I fully agree with you.

> How can we say that ISKCON is the trascendental body of His Divine Grace

> Srila Prabhupada?

>

> ys, Sdd

>

Yes, I'm sorry to say, I agree. History will bear out that her comments were

the worst kind of blasphemy, at least to sincere Vaisnavas. Srila Prabhupada

was always held in the highest regard, and anyone who was part of the Krsna

consciousness movement understood that one never dare to say things in the

tone and manner as that of this most unfortunate devotee. "One who says he is

My devotee, he is not My devotee. But he who says he in the devotee of My

devotee, he is My devotee." Unless one falls down at the lotus feet of the

pure, unalloyed devotees of Krsna in full humility there is no way to

approach Krsna.

The argument that she was just expressing doubts, free speech, etc., is

merely groping at straws. These ideas of being free to express doubt (as

Arjuna certainly did) , etc., are certainly besides the point here. There is

the separate issue--the bigger issue of the way she belittled our beloved

spiritual master, the words she used, speaking of him as some common rascal

who is caught in the clutches of maya.

In the name of free speech, if some want to argue against censuring her and

are denying the offensiveness of her statements, then there is purhaps two

groups speaking here from different perspectives. If the devotees are

horrendously offended by anyone daring to speak about Srila Prabhupada in

such a way, in any circumstance, at any time, then that is the mood of the

sincere disciple becoming angry when such a pure and unalloyed devotee is

being held up for scorn.

On the other hand, if there are proponents of free speech, who have no

sentiment for rejecting such statements because of the content and

circumstances, that is another thing. They are entitled to such ideas. But

such mentality is not going to be very likely accepted in the community of

soft hearted devotees that are filled with awe and reverence for Srila

Prabhupada. So, these are certainly two groups with two different mentalities

and there isn't much scope for these groups to ever live peacefully together.

At least I hope things never deteriorate in Krsna consciousness so much so

that Srila Prabhupada is fair game to take shots at and criticized for his

manner of speaking, his self-confidence, his motives of being favorable to a

perspective donor, etc., etc., and it becomes acceptable to analyze him

harshly--all in the name of such mundane considerations as free speech, or

speaking doubts no matter how disrespectful to the glorious acaryas.

What is there to argue in this respect? There are just these two perspectives

from two groups with different mentalities. Let me always find the dust of

the lotus feet of those who are immediately angered and offended when they

hear blasphemy of the pure devotee. Even if one can cite free speech, it is

better to ere on the side of humility and great respect for exulted acaryas.

Respectfully Mahananda dasa

November 20, 1999

>Sridhari.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

> >

> > Reading the offensive statement of this Dhyanakunda dasi, I am surprised

> > that even her spiritual master has not disowned her. I wonder what kind

> > of spiritual masters or authorities we have this days.

Dear Sridhari Prabhu,

Please be *very, very* careful how you talk about Krsna Ksetra Prabhu. He's a

wonderful Vaisnava and you're treading on very thin ice here - the very

thing you accused Dhyanakunda Prabhu of doing.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 20, 1999

>

> >Sridhari.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

>

> > >

> > > Reading the offensive statement of this Dhyanakunda dasi, I am

> > > surprised that even her spiritual master has not disowned her. I

> > > wonder what kind

> > > of spiritual masters or authorities we have this days.

>

> Dear Sridhari Prabhu,

>

> Please be *very, very* careful how you talk about Krsna Ksetra Prabhu.

> He's a wonderful Vaisnava and you're treading on very thin ice here - the

> very thing you accused Dhyanakunda Prabhu of doing.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

Dear Madhusudani mataji,

The above statement was made by me and not Sridhari. Accepting Krishna

Ksetra Prabhu is a wonderful vaisnava, just as most ISKCON devotees,

nonetheless, he has accepted the role of a guru. In spiritual life, firm

obedience to the spiritual master is paramount, otherwise, there is no

meaning to spiritual life. If his disciple have such mentality towards his

(Srila Prabhupada) guru, and he had failed to quickly act on that before it

reached the assembly of general ISKCON devotees, definitely his integrity

will be questioned. Devotees are not fools when they detect an aparadha of a

great magnitude being directed at our founder acarya. Feminists want to

provide answer to everything about their miseries and indirectly insulting

Srila Prabhupada. I think they will be better off being outside ISKCON

society till they can develop proper devotional mentality.

Krishna consciousness and Vedic culture is not about mundane equality, but

of submissive obedience to the higher authorities.

ys,

Isvara dasa.

November 20, 1999

>>Accepting Krishna Ksetra Prabhu is a

wonderful vaisnava, just as most ISKCON devotees,

nonetheless, he has accepted the role of a guru.>>

I'm still not sure that your addition above justifies your previous public

statement:

>I am surprised that even her spiritual master has

>not disowned her. I wonder what kind of spiritual

>masters or authorities we have this days.

Casting aspersions on the intergrity of an ISKCON guru in good standing

without bothering to even clarify with him personally first exactly how he

handled a given situation, just doesn't seem like setting a good example of

the kinds of behaviors you say you want to see in our society.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 20, 1999

ps. my apologies to Sridhari prabhu for attributing a quote to her that was

made by someone else. I just reviewed past texts to see how I could have made

that mistake and found it in text 2793672 by Mahananda prabhu, who wrote:

Text 2793672 (67 lines)

Internet: Mahananda1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

Today 01:32 -0500

DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) [3384],

Granddisciples (of Srila Prabhupada) [3660],

India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) [920],

Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) [18395]

(received: Today 12:32 +0530),

Tirtharaj (das) TKG (Brisbane - AU) [12105]

(received: Today 05:39 -0500)

Cc: ISKCON India (news & discussion) [2855]

For: GBC Discussions

Re: Judge for yourself 4

---------------------------

In a message dated 11/19/1999 10:51:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Sridhari.JPS (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

> >

> > Reading the offensive statement of this Dhyanakunda dasi, I am surprised

> > that even her spiritual master has not disowned her.

-----------------------------

I should have gone back to the original and not simply commented on someone

else's text. I'll be more careful in the future. COM is confusing enough even

when we attribute quotes correctly. We certainly don't need to add to that

confusion.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 20, 1999

Just noticed your sentence:

>>I think they will be better off being outside ISKCON

society till they can develop proper devotional mentality.>>

Interesting thought. Now where in Prabhupada's writings do you find support

for the idea that it's in "outside ISKCON society" that we develop proper

devotional morality? My understanding is that a proper devotional mood is

obtained by remaining in ISKCON, associating with devotees and doing

devotional service and thus becoming purified.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 21, 1999

> Just noticed your sentence:

> >>I think they will be better off being outside ISKCON

> society till they can develop proper devotional mentality.>>

>

> Interesting thought. Now where in Prabhupada's writings do you find

> support for the idea that it's in "outside ISKCON society" that we develop

> proper devotional morality? My understanding is that a proper devotional

> mood is obtained by remaining in ISKCON, associating with devotees and

> doing devotional service and thus becoming purified.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

Quite interesting thought indeed. A loving devotional mood towards

Radha-Krishna is developed in the association of devoteess, such as being

facilitated by Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON. Such a devotional mood is

practised according to the authourities of guru, sadhu and sastra. Feminism

is not something you will find in any of the authourised scriptures, but an

invention of the modern day demonic society.

Actually my phrase was wrongly worded. It should be "those who propagate the

idea of modern day feminism are better off outside ISKCON". That can make

everybody happy.

Ys,

Isvara dasa.

November 21, 1999

At 9:17 -0800 11/21/99, COM: Isvara (das) GGS (Vrindavana - IN) wrote:

>

>It should be "those who propagate the

>idea of modern day feminism are better off outside ISKCON". That can make

>everybody happy.

I have never seen anyone propagating modern day feminism in ISKCON. So

maybe those people agree with you. ;-)

But I still don't see everyone being happy - unfortunately.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 21, 1999

>> Casting aspersions on the intergrity of an ISKCON guru in good standing

>> without bothering to even clarify with him personally first exactly how he

>> handled a given situation, just doesn't seem like setting a good example

>> of the kinds of behaviors you say you want to see in our society.

>>

>> Ys,

>> Madhusudani dasi

>

>This is not a question of casting aspersions on an ISKCON guru. It is the

>gravity of the situation at hand of an ISKCON devotee making blasphemous

>statements about our Srila Prabhupada on an ISKCON sponsored forum, and the

>ISKCON leadership have remain silent about it. Such a thing is not tolerable

>nor even open for discussion.

But how do you *know* that he has not already dealt with it? Or that the

ISKCON leadership has remained silent? Dhyanakunda's text is almost 2

months old! Lots of things could have happened since then. You only heard

of her text recently. Who knows what else you missed? I was simply stating

that your assumption re. Krsna Ksetra Prabhu might not be correct and that

it would therfore be prudent to check with him before blasting anyone.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

November 21, 1999

Isvara das wrote:

> >This is not a question of casting aspersions on an ISKCON guru. It is the

> >gravity of the situation at hand of an ISKCON devotee making blasphemous

> >statements about our Srila Prabhupada on an ISKCON sponsored forum, and

> >the ISKCON leadership have remain silent about it. Such a thing is not

> >tolerable nor even open for discussion.

If someone says that devotees should have opprotuniy to express their doubts

then it's ok but again, IT HAS TO BE WITHIN A LIMIT. Challenging Srila

Prabhupada who is our founder and acarya must not be permitted in *any*, I

repeat *any*, forum regardless of who is organising it. It's not that if

someone is organasing a conference he/she may allow there whatever he/she

likes and I allow whatever I like. NO. All conferences on COM or any

ISKCON/BBT sposorted e-mail system have to follow a certain minimum standard

and not allowing SP criticism is such minimum, essential standard. If this

is not followed spontaneously then there will be no other way but to start

writing to concerned authorities to make sure this minimum standard is

followed on all ISKCON/BBT e-mail systems.

ys, bb

November 21, 1999

> Feminism is not something you will find in any of the authourised

> scriptures, but an invention of the modern day demonic society.

> Actually my phrase was wrongly worded. It should be "those who propagate

> the idea of modern day feminism are better off outside ISKCON". That can

> make everybody happy.

>

> Ys,

>

> Isvara dasa.

Yes and even better start again the inquisition and burn "those witches,

isn,t it...?

And I thought the Middle Age mentality is over...

November 21, 1999

> >>Accepting Krishna Ksetra Prabhu is a

> wonderful vaisnava, just as most ISKCON devotees,

> nonetheless, he has accepted the role of a guru.>>

>

> I'm still not sure that your addition above justifies your previous public

> statement:

>

> >I am surprised that even her spiritual master has

> >not disowned her. I wonder what kind of spiritual

> >masters or authorities we have this days.

>

> Casting aspersions on the intergrity of an ISKCON guru in good standing

> without bothering to even clarify with him personally first exactly how he

> handled a given situation, just doesn't seem like setting a good example

> of the kinds of behaviors you say you want to see in our society.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

Here I agree with Mataji, Isvara Prabhu... you would have done best to

inquire directly from Krishna Kshetra Prabhu first in this regard before

questioning his integrity.

It's funny that in another letter to me you wrote;

> While remaining loyal to Srila Prabhupada and his movement, I also make my

> respectfull obeisances to any bona fide vaisnavas regardless of which

> institution they belong to.

Instead of condemning our leaders wholesale as you have in the above

mentioned statement, wouldn't it have been better to deal with your

objections in a philosophical way?

Don't you think that devotees like Krishna Kshetra Prabhu & other ISKCON

leaders are "bona fide vaishnavas"?

Honestly, I think you ought to reconsider what you've written above. Let's

try and be humble and arrive at a correct understanding of the siddhanta and

also how to behave (I refer here now to the controversial statements of the

disciple of KK Prabhu mentioned above) by logic & reason.

It's indeed easy to criticize the leadership... but difficult to lead.

VaiŠava d€sanud€s,

B€su Ghosh D€s

November 22, 1999

I can't think any good reason why i shouldn't drop out of all conferences and

try and improve my devotional service somehow. Therefore, anyone who can do

it, please remove me from any or all conferences that i am d to.

Respectfully Mahananda dasa

November 22, 1999

I can't think any good reason why i shouldn't drop out of all conferences and

try and improve my devotional service somehow. Therefore, anyone who can do

it, please remove me from any or all conferences that i am d to.

Respectfully Mahananda dasa

November 23, 1999