How does the GBC propose to engage senior Vaisnavis in devotional

[Guest guest]

Camp: New Delhi

 

Respected Mataji Kushadevi,

 

Saadaram vandanaani. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

Just read your text with interest;

 

> Dear Maharajs and Prabhus,

>

> Dandavats! Jayasrila Prabhupada! I agree with Srila Prabhu regarding the

> historical context that lead up to the incident regarding darshan in

> Vrindavan. We, Vaisnavis have endured terse management attitudes for

> decades. At best, we ladies have been tolerated. Most of the mataji's

> are accustomed to being handled roughly by ISKCON's embrace, but still

> they remain in their Lord's seva unconditionally.

 

Mataji, honestly generalizations are not always true, are they? How can you

say that "most" of the mataji's are "accustomed to be handled roughly by

ISKCON'S embrace"?

 

Even if it were true, why blame ISKCON? Aren't we all suffering or enjoying

the fruits of our past karmas from previous lives?

 

This is not a rationalization of abuse; not at all. It is a most humble

request to try to even more deeply contemplate on the duties of women that

vedic culture, literature and tradition have recommended since "time

immemorial".

 

And isn't humility the greatest quality? And ought not the respected ISKCON

matajis teach, by the own examples, not only their own daughters and

daughter's in laws, but other women all over the world what an ideal vedic

woman's life ought to be? Isn't that why Srila Prabhupada had his female

disciples wear Saris (shaaktika or shaati in samskritam...) to cook

vedic/Indian preparations and to engage in various activities in the service

Lord Vishnu's various archa vigrahas?

 

> Venerable Vaisnavis do not participate in our ISKCON society for name and

> fame. Generally, they have no ambition for these things. Their addiction

> to devotional service and their wealth of realization is amazing. ISKCON

> has gained much through their selfless service. I applaud them.

 

OK. We should offer our respects even to an ant! I don't think the present

controversy is at all based on disrespect. It's a question that in public;

in society; there is the "principle of separation of the sexes".

 

> How does the GBC plan to engage senior vaisnavas and senior matajis as our

> household duties reduce and we move toward vanaprasta? Please also

> consider, our ability to physically work may be diminishing.

 

Since I'm not a GBC I may not be qualified to answer this; but since this

letter has found it's way to me... may I suggest that training & assisting

the daughter in law and other younger ladies in housekeeping, serving their

husbands and worshiping the Lord would be the ideal engagement for them.

 

> I know my mother is the flotilla commander of the auxiliary coast guard in

> Kaneohe, Hawaii. She is retired and does this as her charitable work. She

> is in charge of her flotilla and recruits first class young people into

> coast guard colleges. Interestingly, she is in charge of her locale. She

> answers to superiors on a national level. While we were growing up my

> mataji didn't work, she took care of children. When we grew up, she went

> to work. Now that she is retired she is doing charitable work.

 

Although I agree that this indicates that your most respected mataji is a

softhearted individual...

 

However, the occupation of "flotilla commander" would not exactly fall under

the vedic conception of how an elderly woman ought to pass her time.

 

It may also be humbly suggested that the elderly ladies can "cultivate"

(which means "inclucate" a devotional spirit in) other ladies in the areas

they live.

 

> Just some food for thought for the GBC! We ladies have years of on the

> job training, we have heard Srimad Bhagawatam for years and years. When

> cooking and cleaning are no longer an option, what kind of service will

> you propose for us?

 

Here in India grandmothers usually are the ones who narrate thestories of

the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas to the young children... in order to

teach them a sense of vedic morality and culture.

 

> The GBC needs to recognize and plan to engage this large body of talent in

> devotional service. It has been noted that some of our senior talent is

> being engaged elsewhere in devotional activities. ISKCON is our family.

> Isn't it the GBC elders joyful duty to engage their loving family members

> in the family business?

 

In fact "grihastashrama" is a place that ought to function independently of

the GBC... of course except when there are householders living in the

ashramas... the GBC... well, there is definately a "discussion" going on (at

least that what I gathered from Suhotra Maharaj's recent letter to many of

us here on COM) about just what their role is!

 

If, out of illusion or for "other reasons" persons are leaving ISKCON...

well of course the GBC can and ought to reflect on that. Which reminds me

of Hari Sauri Prabhu's speech at Vrindavan *last year*, when he said that he

wanted to begin the reform process by reforming himself.

 

Still... you have made a valuable point here and let's hope that after

dealing with the several "crisises" facing ISKCON at the moment, the GBC

would find the time to consider your appeal.

 

Hope you are well.

 

dasanudas,

 

Basu Ghosh Das

 

> Thank Srila Prabhupada our ISKCON family business is Krishna seva!

>

> Yours in devotional service, Kusha mata

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

"How does the GBC propose to engage senior Vaishnavis in devotional

service?" This question begs another question: How do the senior Vaishnavis

propose to engage themselves?

 

There is no one-size-fits-all answer. How do you expect the GBC to

dictate the service of hundreds or thousands of individuals on the basis of

their being members of a particular body-group?

 

The answer to that question cannot be any more true than this statement:

 

"Venerable Vaisnavis do not participate in our ISKCON society for name

and

fame. Generally, they have no ambition for these things. Their addiction to

devotional service and their wealth of realization is amazing."

 

Older matajis will remember this phrase: "Don't Lump Us In." Merging

everyone into the same pot is no more true now than it was twenty years ago.

 

No one is going to order senior Vaishnavas that they must do this or that

service. The question of service will be resolved by those Vaishnavas

selecting services they want to offer to Krishna and then working out the

details with the appropriate local decision-makers -- be they managers or

simply the body of local devotees.

 

Like everyone else in ISKCON, senior matajis will have to deal with the

fact that they may not always be welcome in a particular place or in a

particular service. Most senior devotees face this reaction from time to

time. It's a fact of life. One must find a community of Vaishnavas with

which one shares a common vision and wherein one may feel comfortable.

Devotees who try to force themselves into specific situations are not going

to feel very satisfied with the result.

 

A word of practical advice: Remember that no group in ISKCON can claim a

monopoly on being abused. Eventually, one must shed the garb of a victim and

take control of his or her own life. Senior Vaishnavas, equipt with years of

experience, should know this better that anyone.

 

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

 

[srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se], or

[srirama (AT) jps (DOT) net] < PLEASE NOTE THIS NEW EMAIL ADDRESS

[http://www.web-construct.net/creditcard.html]

 

 

 

 

Kusha.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Kusha.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se]

Friday, November 19, 1999 10:37 AM

How does the GBC propose to engage senior Vaisnavis in

devotional serv

 

Dear Maharajs and Prabhus,

 

Dandavats! Jayasrila Prabhupada! I agree with Srila Prabhu regarding the

historical context that lead up to the incident regarding darshan in

Vrindavan. We, Vaisnavis have endured terse management attitudes for

decades. At best, we ladies have been tolerated. Most of the mataji's are

accustomed to being handled roughly by ISKCON's embrace, but still they

remain in their Lord's seva unconditionally.

 

Venerable Vaisnavis do not participate in our ISKCON society for name and

fame. Generally, they have no ambition for these things. Their addiction to

devotional service and their wealth of realization is amazing. ISKCON has

gained much through their selfless service. I applaud them.

 

How does the GBC plan to engage senior vaisnavas and senior matajis as our

household duties reduce and we move toward vanaprasta? Please also

consider,

our ability to physically work may be diminishing.

 

I know my mother is the flotilla commander of the auxiliary coast guard in

Kaneohe, Hawaii. She is retired and does this as her charitable work. She

is

in charge of her flotilla and recruits first class young people into coast

guard colleges. Interestingly, she is in charge of her locale. She answers

to superiors on a national level. While we were growing up my mataji

didn't

work, she took care of children. When we grew up, she went to work. Now

that

she is retired she is doing charitable work.

 

Just some food for thought for the GBC! We ladies have years of on the job

training, we have heard Srimad Bhagawatam for years and years. When cooking

and cleaning are no longer an option, what kind of service will you propose

for us?

 

The GBC needs to recognize and plan to engage this large body of talent in

devotional service. It has been noted that some of our senior talent is

being

engaged elsewhere in devotional activities. ISKCON is our family. Isn't it

the GBC elders joyful duty to engage their loving family members in the

family business?

 

Thank Srila Prabhupada our ISKCON family business is Krishna seva!

 

Yours in devotional service, Kusha mata

 

 

Srila Prabhu wrote: <<<<Prabhupada showed the example by being sensitive to

EVERYONE's spiritual needs! The more we see such worshipful qualities of

*suhrdam sarva-bhutanam* and *sarva-bhutatma-bhutatma* manifested in our

sannyasis, the more we will all be pleased to grant them whatever special

facility as they deserve.

 

Now I want to propose a *COMPROMISE* to relieve this impasse. That is, the

Vrndavan temple managers can make some SMALL concession to the sannyasis,

which I am sure the ladies would also be agreeable to: For the first minute

or

so of Deity greeting, the ladies can leave a 3ft-wide TEMPORARY CORRIDOR so

that the sannyasis -- and sannyasis ONLY! -- can one-by-one pass and HUMBLY

offer their dandavats, and then quickly return to where the rest of the men

are. That would seem both FAIR and PROPER, and causing the minimal

inconvenience to ladies as well as sannyasis.

 

How could anyone who was truly renounced and dependent on Krsna ask for

more?

 

What do all my honorable Vaisnava Prabhus think?

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Vaisnavanudasa abhilasi,

 

Srila dasa

>>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> OK. We should offer our respects even to an ant! I don't think the present

> controversy is at all based on disrespect. It's a question that in public;

> in society; there is the "principle of separation of the sexes".

 

Then why are the sannyasis so eager to enter the woman's space? Why don't they

just stay on their own side of the temple? If the argument is that they want

pay respects to all the Deities, then shouldn't the women be given a chance to

also go to the men's side, say until the ghee wick has been passed?

[Guest guest]

GBC's duty:

To encourage devotional engagement within our ISKCON Family

 

Excerpt fron previous discussion:

 

Kusha mata<<<< my mother is the flotilla commander of the auxiliary coast

guard in Kaneohe, Hawaii. She is retired and does this as her charitable

work. She

> is in charge of her flotilla and recruits first class young people into

> coast guard colleges. Interestingly, she is in charge of her locale. She

> answers to superiors on a national level. While we were growing up my

> mataji didn't work, she took care of children. When we grew up, she went

> to work. Now that she is retired she is doing charitable work.

 

Respected Godbrother Basu Gosh's reply

<<<<<<Although I agree that this indicates that your most respected mataji is

a

softhearted individual...

 

However, the occupation of "flotilla commander" would not exactly fall under

the vedic conception of how an elderly woman ought to pass her time. >>

 

Kusha mata's current response: "If my mother had the good fortune to add

Krishna to her activities, she would be preaching and recruiting good quality

devotees to ISKCON's educational programs. She was a chaste wife, good

mother and as her household duties decreased she engaged in charitable

service. She has been put into the role of manager.

 

How will ISKCON encourage Vaisnavis of such significance?"

 

As managers of an international society, we need to understand how to

encourage devotion in all conditions of life.

 

YS, Kusha mata

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/20/1999 12:30:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<<

> OK. We should offer our respects even to an ant! I don't think the

present

> controversy is at all based on disrespect. It's a question that in public;

> in society; there is the "principle of separation of the sexes".

 

<<

Then why are the sannyasis so eager to enter the woman's space? Why don't

they

just stay on their own side of the temple? If the argument is that they want

pay respects to all the Deities, then shouldn't the women be given a chance

to

also go to the men's side, say until the ghee wick has been passed?>>

 

This is an excellent point. We have been hearing how the women are *forcing*

their standard on the men, yet my entire time in ISKCON (since 1974) it has

been the men, including sanyasis, who have forced their dancing right on over

to the women's side, even if the women are in the back! It seems that what

belongs to the men belongs to the men, and what belongs to the women belongs

to the men. Suddenly, even though the men are on the women's side, they do

not speak of sexual agitation, mingling of the sexes, what is culturally or

Vedically correct even though they are standing in the women's space.

 

By the way, it is Prabhupada’s standard that the women stand on the side,

which offers sufficient separation of the sexes, not the women's standard,

idea or concoction:

 

* When women were made to stand behind men in the back of the temple room

instead of side by side as established formerly by Srila Prabhupada himself,

women went on different occasions to Prabhupada who simply answered: "Why,

the men on one side, the women on one side."

 

* When the women were made to offer flowers after the men during guru-puja,

instead of simultaneously, Srila Prabhupada, informed by Ekayani, gave the

same answer: "Why, the men from one side, the women from one side." (Ekayani)

 

YS,

Prtha dd