RE: How does the GBC propose to engage senior Vaisnavis in devoti

[Guest guest]

Dear Srila Prabhu, Respected Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis,

PAMHO, AGTSP.

 

I just wanted to thank Srila Prabhu for his writings. I hope that more men

will follow his example. It is time to start to talk about this issue

seriously, without thinking of who is a man, or who is a women. We are

supposed to be devotees of the Lord in a first place, and after that we are

this or that. Isn't our philosophy that we are not supposed to identify with

the body? But how can we achieve this if we are all the time reminded that

we are women or man? I am asking the senior Vaisnavas to seriously think

about this. Who will give example to all of us second or third generation

devotees, if you are quarreling and discussing these issues in such a manner

that I can not read it any more?! Please do think about it. And there is

another last thing. How can you expect women to be chaste, if you are not

ready to protect them in a proper way? It is stated in Sastra, that women

have to be protected on a proper way by their fathers, brothers, husband or

son. But I haven't seen much of that protection by now.

Thank you once again, Srila Prabhu, and I apologize if I offended someone.

Please accept my humble obeisance,

All Glories to Srila Prabhupad !

Your servant

Rasa Rasika dasi

WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)

[cirvin (AT) uclink4 (DOT) berkeley.edu]

Sent: 21 November, 1999 03:22

To: COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women); COM: India

(Continental Committee) Open (Forum); COM: IWC (Internat. Women's

Conference); COM: Prabhupada Disciples

Subject: How does the GBC propose to engage senior

Vaisnavis in devotional serv

 

[Text 2795537 from COM]

 

Basu Ghosh wrote:

>Mataji, honestly generalizations are not always true, are

they?

 

What does it take to make the ladies' complaints substantial

enough for us to

address their concerns and do something? 25%, 50%, 75%,

100%? What about all

the ladies (and men) who aren't around any more because of

the pervasiveness

of such gender abuses?

 

> How can you say that "most" of the mataji's are

"accustomed to be handled

roughly by ISKCON'S embrace"?

 

Your reasoning sounds strangely like the attitudes of white

Southerners during

the Civil Rights era, "There's no racism around here. As

long as those Negroes

know their place and keep to the back of the bus, etc. there

ain't no problem!

The only problem is those damn Yankee activists who come

down here and try to

stir things up. Why just ask any common Black folk, they's

happy with the way

things are. Right, sonny?"

[uncle Tom:] "Yes, boss."

 

>Even if it were true, why blame ISKCON? Aren't we all

suffering or enjoying

the fruits of our past karmas from previous lives?

>

>This is not a rationalization of abuse; not at all. It is

a most humble

>request to try to even more deeply contemplate on the

duties of women that

vedic culture, literature and tradition have recommended

since "time

>immemorial".

>

>And isn't humility the greatest quality?

 

If women feel they are being abused or mistreated, then

when, pray tell, is it

their right or "duty" to say or do something about it?

 

And isn't OUR duty as men to stand up and protect women if

other *men* are

causing some abuse?

 

If many many women come forward and complain that there are

serious problems

along gender lines in ISKCON, why do you try to explain it

away?

 

The only righteous thing for ALL men to do is take these

complaints of the

ladies seriously and deal with it to the satisfaction of all

those who feel

transgressed. Otherwise, if we ACCUSE women of not being

chaste and acting in

their role while we EXCUSE ourselves from our bounden duty

as men to protect

them, then we are simply hypocrites.

 

 

Straightforwardly,

 

Srila dasa

[Guest guest]

Rasa Rasika (dd) IDS (Sarajevo - BiH) wrote:

How can you expect women to be chaste, if you are not

> ready to protect them in a proper way?

 

Hare Krsna:

agtSP, pamho.

 

Mataji! are you saying that you will loose you chastity due the failure of

men on protecting you!!!!

 

if you are ready for that so speak only on your behalf!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I agree that some men fail on his attempts on protecting women. But even

that, I found many men that were/are ready to protect us in a Vedic way,

including my GM. When I felt unprotected I complain about it, if it was

need I very much complained, and I always feel protect by Sri Krsna,

because in my heart I am always ready to follow Srila Prabhupada's

teachings, as better as I am able to!

 

It is stated in Sastra, that women

> have to be protected on a proper way by their fathers, brothers, husband

or

> son. But I haven't seen much of that protection by now.

 

We are western people by our 'bad' karma, that is why our father, brothers

didn't protected us as Vedic sastras demand, husbands? are you married? if

your husband doesn't protect you properly you have to deal with it in some

way asking for help to your GM or your husband's Guru.

Sons? my sons still need me to protect them, and it will depend on me to

educate them properly so they can protect me when it will be require.

 

ys, Sridhari devi dasi

[Guest guest]

> Rasa Rasika (dd) IDS (Sarajevo - BiH) wrote:

> How can you expect women to be chaste, if you are not

> > ready to protect them in a proper way?

>

> Hare Krsna:

> agtSP, pamho.

>

> Mataji! are you saying that you will loose you chastity due the failure of

> men on protecting you!!!!

>

> if you are ready for that so speak only on your behalf!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sridhari Prabhu, why you are always so extreeemmmm.....

 

> I agree that some men fail on his attempts on protecting women. But even

> that, I found many men that were/are ready to protect us in a Vedic way,

> including my GM. When I felt unprotected I complain about it, if it was

> need I very much complained, and I always feel protect by Sri Krsna,

> because in my heart I am always ready to follow Srila Prabhupada's

> teachings, as better as I am able to!

 

That 's fine for you, but don't you think that you speak only on your behalf

now ? What is with all the other female devotees who got mistreated and due

to their shyness were not able to complain?

 

If I speak about my experiences I don't remember any men who stood up for

any women rather they were more interested not to be called a henpecked

husband or an attached brahmacari or sannyasi.

 

Y.s. Hariballabha dd

[Guest guest]

No my dear mata, I was not saying that I'll loose my chastity if the man do

not protect me, I said that they can not expect something from us if they do

not offer something in return, OK? Are you satisfied now? I hope you are

because you sounded so disturbed in your reply. I am sorry if I offended you

or said something bad. That was my opinion and you are not supposed to

change it. You can accept it or reject it, but you are not supposed to

change it. I have a right to express my opinion as well as the other

devotees, so please in future do not address me or anyone else in such a

manner. That is not polite and for sure is not a good mannered behavior.

Thank you.

Please accept my humble obeisance.

All glories to Srila Prabhupad!

Your servant,

Rasa Rasika dasi

 

COM: Hariballabha (dd) (Berlin - D)

[Hariballabha (AT) bbt (DOT) se]

Sent: 23 November, 1999 15:46

To: COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women); COM: India

(Continental Committee) Open (Forum); COM: (International) Women's Ministry;

'cirvin (AT) uclink4 (DOT) berkeley.edu'

Subject: RE: How does the GBC propose to engage

senior Vaisnavis in devoti onal

 

[Text 2801524 from COM]

 

> Rasa Rasika (dd) IDS (Sarajevo - BiH) wrote:

> How can you expect women to be chaste, if you are not

> > ready to protect them in a proper way?

>

> Hare Krsna:

> agtSP, pamho.

>

> Mataji! are you saying that you will loose you chastity

due the failure of

> men on protecting you!!!!

>

> if you are ready for that so speak only on your

behalf!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sridhari Prabhu, why you are always so extreeemmmm.....

 

> I agree that some men fail on his attempts on protecting

women. But even

> that, I found many men that were/are ready to protect us

in a Vedic way,

> including my GM. When I felt unprotected I complain about

it, if it was

> need I very much complained, and I always feel protect by

Sri Krsna,

> because in my heart I am always ready to follow Srila

Prabhupada's

> teachings, as better as I am able to!

 

That 's fine for you, but don't you think that you speak

only on your behalf

now ? What is with all the other female devotees who got

mistreated and due

to their shyness were not able to complain?

 

If I speak about my experiences I don't remember any men who

stood up for

any women rather they were more interested not to be called

a henpecked

husband or an attached brahmacari or sannyasi.

 

Y.s. Hariballabha dd

[Guest guest]

>

> [Text 2801602 from COM]

>

> No my dear mata, I was not saying that I'll loose my chastity if the man

do

> not protect me, I said that they can not expect something from us if they

do

> not offer something in return, OK? Are you satisfied now? I hope you are

> because you sounded so disturbed in your reply.

 

Hare Krsna:

please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

You expressed that in your previous mail, and there is a big groups of

ladies that are ready to change places with men. Is not if I am please or

not Mataji, the point is if we can please or not to Srila Prabhupada with

our behaviour.

 

I am sorry if I offended you

> or said something bad.

 

you didn't offended me, I never took it as personally, nor will I do.

 

That was my opinion and you are not supposed to

> change it. You can accept it or reject it, but you are not supposed to

> change it.

 

I can change nothing on you, unless you want to change something and it is

up to you of course. But Srila Prabhupada's teaching are for changing us.

and those changes are meant to purify our dirty conciousness full of

material desire, wrong education, and we have to clean ourselves and learn

a new way of behaviour, a new way of values of relationships, and standarts

(if we want to be part of his (SP) project to go back Home.

 

I have a right to express my opinion as well as the other

> devotees, so please in future do not address me or anyone else in such

a

> manner. That is not polite and for sure is not a good mannered behavior.

 

If I have offended you I humbly apologize, but your letter sounded too

heavy.

Lord Caitanya taught us that we must be prepare to give respect to others

without expecting anything in change (TRINAD API SUNICENA TAROR API

SAHISNUNA AMANINA MANADENA KIRTANYA SADA HARI), if men fail on their

duties, they will stay in this ugly material world, so do you mean to stay

too? why always demanding to men to be first?

I know some men in our society that are ready to protect us If we accept

it. Those men who don't understand the importance of protection, let them

go.

If it is a problem of darshan, I know what is it because I lived it, I want

just coming back to the Temple room later when it was empty and got my

full darshan ONLY FOR MYSELF. (for example)

 

About what Hariballabha (dd) (Berlin - D) express to me in her mail, if

some Mata is too shy to complain, then why doesn't she use DADATI

PRATIGRINATI and a Godsister help her? what are sisters meant for? But one

thing is to complain with proper vaisnava etiquette and another thing is

making politics against ALL men.

Shyness is one of the best qualities that

a women can have and very difficult to find it in this KALI yuga's.

I offer my humble obeisances to all those shyness ladies that are fortunate

to develope that quality that upon all that by karma can happened they are

more close to surrender and get purified if they sincerously trust our

Lord,

and beg from those ladies the mercy to learn how to be shy also.

BTW, lets help them us much as we can (but always under Srila Prabhupada's

instructions & guidence).

 

I apologize if I had offend anyone of you.

 

ys, Sridhari dd