reply to Basu Ghosh Prabhu re:engaing Matajis

[Guest guest]

Home Base: ISKCON-Baroda

 

Respected Lola M€taj…,

 

Namonamaƒ. Jaya ®r…la Prabhup€da!

 

Thank you for your message:

 

> Dear Basu Ghosh Prabhu,

>

> Please accept my obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> In your cordial reply to Kusha Prabhu on Nov.20th you say a number of

> things which interest me. For the sake of brevity, however I will adress

> only one.

> You say:

>

> >"However, the occupation of "flotilla commander" would not exactly fall

> under the vedic conception of how an elderly woman ought to pass her

> time."< and:

>

> >"Here in India grandmothers usually are the ones who narrate the stories

> >of

> the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas to the young children... in order to

> teach them a sense of vedic morality and culture."<

>

> Abhirama Prabhu very eloquently showed in one article that various systems

> were simultaneously occuring in different parts of India during Vedic

> times. Somes areas had monarchy, others matriarchy, others had forms of

> democracy. There is no one set of customs that describe Vedic.

 

This statement in your last sentence here is debatable.

 

Because there is the Manu Smriti and other dharma shastras which set down

what the standards of social behavior ought to be in a "vedic" society.

 

If we cannot accept this description... we will go on debating endlessly.

 

"The Manu-samhita is the standard lawbook for humanity, and every human

being is advised to follow this great book of social knowledge. Human

society is the residential quarters for the Lord. This means that the human

being is meant for God realization and association with God." (SP SB

Purport, 2.1.36)

 

"The whole administrative system is arranged for the purpose of going back

home, back to Godhead. Brahma is the representative of the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, and Manu is the representative of Brahma. Similarly,

all other kings on different planets of the universe are representatives of

Manu. The lawbook for the entire human society is the Manu-samhita, which

directs all activities towards the transcendental service of the Lord." (SP

SB Purport 3.13.12)

 

"The idea of a life for a life is not a very new concept but can be found in

the Manu-samhita, the Vedic lawbook for mankind, where it is stated that

when a king hangs the murderer, the murderer is actually benefited, for if

he is not killed, he will carry the reaction for his murder and will have to

suffer in so many ways." (SP in Matchless Gifts, Ch.3)

 

"In Manu-samhita, the lawbook for mankind, it is supported that a murderer

should be condemned to death so that in his next life he will not have to

suffer for the great sin he has committed." (SP BG Purport 2.21)

 

> Details vary and the main determination of Vedic is whether it is for >

Krsna's pleasure.

 

Sorry to disagree on this "main determination" you've mentioned. Indeed

what is found in dharma shastras, i.e. Manu Samhita are for Krishna's

pleasure, but the "determination" is whether it is found there or not. Not

what you nor I think it is.

 

> Even today the customs of the vaisnava Manipuri state vary from

> the vaisnava customs in the Gujarati province.

 

Let's shift the focus from "customs" to "laws" and then things will become

clearer.

 

> Therefore we must be

> careful not to define 'Vedic' too narrowly. Draupadi ran the treasury of

> the Pandavas. Rukmini drove the chariot when Krsna kidnapped her. Srila

> Prabhupada engaged his female disciples in distributing books,

> translating, editing, giving classes to assemblies of vaisnavas, cooking,

> caring for children etc. Engaging women devotees will depend on their

> nature and circumstances. I agree that many ladies will be active in

> teaching granchildren. I certainly hope that I am. There may be other

> engagements too, in addition to this, and some ladies will not have

> children or grandchildren to live with. According to their abilities,

> tendencies and what keeps them enlivened and productive, ladies may be

> engaged in many activities; artisan work, tending gardens and animals,

> running schools and medical facilities, counselling, arbitrating and

> mediating, administrating finances, comanding flotillas (if they are

> living adjacent to water),or sankirtan activites, distributing books,

> public relations, journalism, photography etc. etc.etc.

 

While I agree with the nice examples you've given at the top of the para

here, still, there are differing activities for men and women. The idea is

that the women have certain natural duties, and if they are engaged in those

activities, they will be peaceful and happy.

 

Commanding flotillas just doesn't seem to be one of them... but you've

definately "hit upon" many of them and I'm sure that there are many more

too!

 

> Thankyou Basu Ghosh Prabhu for your comment to Kusha

> ".. you have made a valuable point here and let's hope that after

> dealing with the several "crisises" facing ISKCON at the moment, the GBC

> would find the time to consider your appeal."

> Please Prabhu, add whatever support you can to indeed having this issue

> discussed and acted upon at the earliest possible time.

 

Mataji, I consider that I have a very friendly relationship with Kusha

Mataji... even if we've only met 2/3 times; she was kind enough to visit the

Mandir here about a year ago for about an hour. She and you and all Matajis

are always welcome to visit...

 

And yes, I'm all for the GBC encouraging the ladies in various departments

of devotional service. At the same time I feel that both the GBC and the

senior ladies should promote traditional vedic concepts of womanly life

amongst all the devotees. Isn't that what Srila Prabhupada did when he

taught us to eat, sleep, & dress, etc., like vaishnavas?

 

VaiŠava d€sanud€s,

 

B€su Ghosh D€s

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Because there is the Manu Smriti and other dharma shastras which set down

> what the standards of social behavior ought to be in a "vedic" society.

>

> If we cannot accept this description... we will go on debating endlessly.

>

> "The Manu-samhita is the standard lawbook for humanity, and every human

> being is advised to follow this great book of social knowledge. Human

> society is the residential quarters for the Lord. This means that the human

> being is meant for God realization and association with God." (SP SB

> Purport, 2.1.36)

 

Madhya 10.154 purport

 

It is customary for a person who has renounced the world to cover his

body with a deerskin or the bark of a tree. This is enjoined by the

ManuSamhita.

 

So I will advise all the matajis to get out of the way when a sannyasi shows up

wearing deerskin or bark.

 

Point = don't be heavy with one class of devotees on "Vedic" standards while

another is let slide.

[Guest guest]

At 7:05 -0800 11/22/99, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

wrote:

>It is customary for a person who has renounced the world to cover

>his body with a deerskin or the bark of a tree. This is enjoined by the

>ManuSamhita.

 

>So I will advise all the matajis to get out of the way when a sannyasi

>shows up

>wearing deerskin or bark.

 

 

Absolutely. I'd probably *run*!

 

And I'm assuming that Basu Ghosh, Krsna-hirti and other have read Hare

Krsna prabhu's excellent text on what the ManuSamhita says about how one

should "go to the bathroom" and that they are following all those rules too.

 

>Point = don't be heavy with one class of devotees on "Vedic" standards

>while another is let slide.

 

True, that wouldn't be very Vedic, would it?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 8:31 PM -0500 11/21/99, Loladd1 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

>[Text 2797568 from COM]

 

>>"However, the occupation of "flotilla commander" would not exactly fall

>under the vedic conception of how an elderly woman ought to pass her time."<

>and:

>

>>"Here in India grandmothers usually are the ones who narrate the stories of

>the Ramayana, Mahabharata and Puranas to the young children... in order to

>teach them a sense of vedic morality and culture."<

>

>Abhirama Prabhu very eloquently showed in one article that various systems

>were simultaneously occuring in different parts of India during Vedic times.

>Somes areas had monarchy, others matriarchy, others had forms of democracy.

>There is no one set of customs that describe Vedic. Details vary and the

>main determination of Vedic is whether it is for Krsna's pleasure. Even

>today the customs of the vaisnava Manipuri state vary from the vaisnava

>customs in the Gujarati province.

 

The history of Vedic India is the Mahabharata. There is no matriarchy in

the Mahabharata unless it was a description of some uncivilized mleccha

society. Democracy in Vedic time? Show us an example from the Mahabharata

or Ramayana.

 

Here are some examples from the history of the Mahabharata that demonstrate

the aberration of female leadership.

 

 

1: "As we learn from the history of the Mahabharata, or "Greater India,"

the wives and daughters of the ruling class, the ksatriyas, knew the

political game, but we never find that a woman was given the post of chief

executive. This is in accordance with the injunctions of Manu-samhita, but

unfortunately Manu-samhita is now being insulted, and the Aryans, the

members of Vedic society, cannot do anything. Such is the nature of

Kali-yuga."(SB. 10.4.5)

 

My question to Mother Lola is: How is Manu-samhita being insulted?

 

2. "In India we have got little experience. The female is always

controlled. Female is never given the position of controller. Nowadays it

is going on. Just like Indira Gandhi, she has given the position of

controller. This is artificial. In the history of India, greater India,

Mahabharata, you will never find that a woman has been given a position of

controller. No. It is not possible."(Bhagavad-gita 1.21-22 London, July 18,

1973)

 

3. Prabhupada: ...purpose of life. But they do not know what is the purpose

of life. They have taken the idea of cats and dogs, simply sense

gratification. Now, where, how there will be good government. (break)

...ing all leniency to the Mohammedans to get vote. That's a fact. (break)

...dia, I mean to say, Mahabharata, anywhere, or Ramayana, you'll never

find a woman is elected on the topmost post.

Dr. Patel: And that was widow.

Prabhupada: No, woman is never, was made a king. That was... Now it has

become a fashion.

Dr. Patel: And the widow with all her virtues.

Prabhupada: Yes. (break) ...days greatest politician. Visvaso naiva

kartavyah strisu raja-kulesu ca. So our present head of the state is both

woman and diplomat. That's all. (break(Morning Walk April 17, 1974, Bombay)

 

4. Hrdayananda: These women leaders are not doing so well. Also, in South

America there was a woman leader, and she also was put in jail.

Prabhupada: In the history of India there is no woman leader. Throughout

Mahabharata you'll find... Mahabharata is the greater history, history of

greater India. Maha means greater, and bharata. So "Greater Bharata." That

means this whole planet. So you won't find woman leader. (Room Conversation

March 24, 1977, Bombay)

 

5. "So don't trust woman and politician." This is Canakya Pandita. And she

is both politician and woman. We have got Mahabharata, there is not a

single instance... We had very, very great, qualified women. But they were

in charge of state...? Very, very qualified women. You know. Na

svatantratam arhati, striyah. For woman there is no independence. The

Manu-samhita. They must stay under father, under husband, or under elderly

sons. Three stages. Kunti...

Indian man (6): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi) A young girl cannot go out without father's,

mother's... She cannot mix with any other young man. Strictly prohibited.

(Hindi) If you want to revive real Indian civilization or Vedic

civilization for the good of the whole human society, take to Krsna

consciousness. You'll be happy. There is no doubt.(Evening Darsana May 9,

1977, Hrishikesh)

 

6. "It is very appropriate to compare a powerful king like Prthu to a lion.

In India, ksatriya kings are still called siìgh, which means "lion." Unless

rogues, thieves and other demoniac people in a state are afraid of the

executive head, who rules the kingdom with a strong hand, there cannot be

peace or prosperity in the state. Thus it is most regrettable when a woman

becomes the executive head instead of a lionlike king. In such a situation

the people are considered very unfortunate." (SB 4.16.23)

 

Why are we hell-bent upon making ISKCON "unfortunate" by having female leaders?

 

7. Prabhupada:...And Indira was doing that. Indira and company. Take the

power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her

son is a gunda. This is the sample of the... But it will be done all round

the world. This is a sample of that.

Tamala Krsna: She seems to have been one of the worst leaders so far.

Prabhupada: She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom

means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She

has no fixed-up husband. And free woman means this, daily, new friend.(Room

Conversation April 5, 1977, Bombay)

 

Leaders need to be free. How can ISKCON make women leaders when they should

not be given any freedom?

 

>Therefore we must be careful not to define

>'Vedic' too narrowly. Draupadi ran the treasury of the Pandavas.

 

My wife runs my treasury as well.

 

>Rukmini

>drove the chariot when Krsna kidnapped her.

 

My 10 year old daughter knows how to ride a horse.

 

>Engaging women devotees will depend on their nature and circumstances.

 

Show me where Prabhupada says this.

 

>I agree that many

>ladies will be active in teaching granchildren. I certainly hope that I am.

>There may be other engagements too, in addition to this, and some ladies will

>not have children or grandchildren to live with. According to their

>abilities, tendencies and what keeps them enlivened and productive, ladies

>may be engaged in many activities; artisan work, tending gardens and animals,

>running schools and medical facilities, counselling, arbitrating and

>mediating, administrating finances, comanding flotillas (if they are living

>adjacent to water),or sankirtan activites, distributing books, public

>relations, journalism, photography etc. etc.etc.

 

Is there any occupation women cannot do if they are so inclined?

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/99 8:21:42 PM Central Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

<< Why are we hell-bent upon making ISKCON "unfortunate" by having female

leaders? >>

 

I guess someday when you go back to godhead you can ask Prabhupada why he

said that women can become gurus and why he asked some female disciples to

become GBC members.

[Guest guest]

At 8:48 PM -0500 11/27/99, COM: Mahatma (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

>[Text 2813316 from COM]

>

>In a message dated 11/23/99 8:21:42 PM Central Standard Time,

>btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

>

><< Why are we hell-bent upon making ISKCON "unfortunate" by having female

>leaders? >>

>

>I guess someday when you go back to godhead you can ask Prabhupada why he

>said that women can become gurus and why he asked some female disciples to

>become GBC members.

 

Where did Prabhupada say that his female disciples can become gurus?

 

And when did he ask his female disciples to become GBC members?

 

ys.

 

JMd

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/99 8:10:38 PM Central Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

<< I guess someday when you go back to godhead you can ask Prabhupada why he

>said that women can become gurus and why he asked some female disciples to

>become GBC members.

 

< Where did Prabhupada say that his female disciples can become gurus?>

 

A few days ago there was a post of a conversation in which Prabhupada was

asked if women can become gurus. Basically he said they can if they are

qualified. Prabhupada requested all his disciples to become gurus and as far

as I know he never aimed that request at only male disciples. Also, since

Prabhupada asked both men and women to preach, it is inevitable that some

women would naturally become siksa gurus.

 

For example, one could also ask where did Prabhupada say that black men or

women could become gurus. One may doubt that Prabhupada would want this

because he said black means thief and it also means black past. But we know

that Prabhupada never limited the service of guru to a certain race. He just

said become qualified.

 

< And when did he ask his female disciples to become GBC members? >>

 

As far as I know he asked Yamuna and I think maybe one other woman. Perhaps

someone else can help with the details.

 

Your servant,

 

Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/27/99 9:10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

<<

Where did Prabhupada say that his female disciples can become gurus?

 

And when did he ask his female disciples to become GBC members?

 

ys.

 

JMd >>

 

If you look at the history of Gaudiya Sampradaya, the qualifications to be a

Guru are not limited by gender. Both Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Adwaita

Acarya's wives were first class gurus.

 

YS, Kusha mata