How does the GBC propose to engage senior Vaisnavis in devotional

[Guest guest]

> Just some food for thought for the GBC! We ladies have years of on the

> job training, we have heard Srimad Bhagawatam for years and years. When

> cooking and cleaning are no longer an option, what kind of service will

> you propose for us?

 

How about preaching?

 

In our area, covering several countries in the Arabian Gulf region, there

are several thousand devotees practising Krsna consciousness at home. All

these devotees have been brought to KC by the preaching of the householders.

A couple of hundred of them are initiated.

 

Here wives and mothers apart from cooking and looking after the children,

also preach equally. They conduct bhakti vriksa cell programs for grihastas

as well as for women. They join in the organisation of festivals, in

management, arranging seminars, publishing newletters, preaching to

newcomers, counselling, arranging transcendental picnics - the list is

endless.

 

You don't need the GBC to arrange anything for you. Any individual devotee -

man or woman (or even youth), can start a cell program in his/her home or

the home of any willing person, and create an unlimitedly expanding

preaching program. Age is no bar either - in fact the older you are, the

more the experience, the better you can preach. I am sure no authority will

try to stop this.

 

I can send ready made materials and continuing email assistance to anyone

interested.

 

The matajis all over Iskcon are a huge untapped resource. We can see here

that the matajis in the Arabian Gulf region are great preachers (they

usually study the books better, and are more service minded and humble) and

great managers. No one dreams of pushing them around, and senior matajis'

leadership is accepted even by men, due to their spiritual qualities.

[Guest guest]

> And yet if certain agressive ladies try to smash the traditions that are

> intact in Vrindavan without resorting to a dialogue... trying to force a

> change right there in the Mandir by fighting... should we remain quiet?

 

Well, if the idea is that women shouldn't be allowed to push back against

"brahmacaries", maybe some men should go there and push on their behalf.

 

Anybody know any cheap flights? If it's just some political struggle, we

could

just settle it up the old fashioned ksatriya way How more Vedic could we get

than that?

 

(Don't worry, I don't take these things seriously enough to actually come over

there. Yet.)

[Guest guest]

>

>

> But what about the idealism that this movement was started with? The

> idealism that had westerners adopting Indian dress, food, religious

> practices, etc.?

>

 

There should be exemplary devotees who continue to manifest all that, as a

wonderful ideal for others to aspire to. But if they try to cram it down

others

throats, it won't be very palatable,and hence not very successful.

[Guest guest]

> > But what about the idealism that this movement was started with? The

> > idealism that had westerners adopting Indian dress, food, religious

> > practices, etc.?

> >

>

> There should be exemplary devotees who continue to manifest all that, as

> a wonderful ideal for others to aspire to. But if they try to cram it

> down others throats, it won't be very palatable,and hence not very

> successful.

 

 

More importantly, I think, the ideals spoken of should be divided into the

four natural divisions of human life; catur-varnyam, as recommended by the

Lord.

 

The 'ideals that this movement was started with' have hardly been adopted at

all by anyone of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. From the very first day that

Srila Prabhupada started preaching in the west he was preaching

varnasrama-dharma; he sat down in Tompkins Square Park in the varnasrama

dress of a Sannyasi with a tridanda.

 

If someone had asked him about the sannyasi robes would he have said, "Oh,

varnasrama is just material thing and that is why I am wearing this robe and

carrying this stick."? I do not think so. His books are full of detailed

instructions for us to divide the society of devotees in to the four varnas

for proper Vedic training.

 

Where is that ideal being followed in ISKCON? It only gets a tiny bit of lip

service once and awhile.

 

Does the GHQ have a formal agenda for instituting Srila Prabhupada's

detailed instructions for implementing varnasrama? The GBC certainly does

not and has failed to do so for more than 25 years. Will the GHQ and the

ritviks continue down this path away from Krsna's catur-varnyam along with

their GBC counterparts?

[Guest guest]

Wow! What a nice nama hatta! I had no idea how extensive....please submit some

article to Hare Krishna World. Do you know that by such "cell" preaching, one

missionary in Korea developed a Christian congregation numbering over 150,000?

In 15 years.....talk about "in like a needle out like a plow". This is real

nectar, sounds like excellent opportunity to "give Srimad Bhagavatam class" for

the ladies, after all, why MUST that be considered the only opportunity for

them....it's not....so what's the basis for excessive concern about that tiny

venue wherein one is mostly "preaching to the choir" anyways.....

 

ys,

dsd

 

"COM: Vijaya-venugopala (das) JPS (Persian Gulf)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2807839 from COM]

>

> > Just some food for thought for the GBC! We ladies have years of on the

> > job training, we have heard Srimad Bhagawatam for years and years. When

> > cooking and cleaning are no longer an option, what kind of service will

> > you propose for us?

>

> How about preaching?

>

> In our area, covering several countries in the Arabian Gulf region, there

> are several thousand devotees practising Krsna consciousness at home. All

> these devotees have been brought to KC by the preaching of the householders.

> A couple of hundred of them are initiated.

>

> Here wives and mothers apart from cooking and looking after the children,

> also preach equally. They conduct bhakti vriksa cell programs for grihastas

> as well as for women. They join in the organisation of festivals, in

> management, arranging seminars, publishing newletters, preaching to

> newcomers, counselling, arranging transcendental picnics - the list is

> endless.

>

> You don't need the GBC to arrange anything for you. Any individual devotee -

> man or woman (or even youth), can start a cell program in his/her home or

> the home of any willing person, and create an unlimitedly expanding

> preaching program. Age is no bar either - in fact the older you are, the

> more the experience, the better you can preach. I am sure no authority will

> try to stop this.

>

> I can send ready made materials and continuing email assistance to anyone

> interested.

>

> The matajis all over Iskcon are a huge untapped resource. We can see here

> that the matajis in the Arabian Gulf region are great preachers (they

> usually study the books better, and are more service minded and humble) and

> great managers. No one dreams of pushing them around, and senior matajis'

> leadership is accepted even by men, due to their spiritual qualities.

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > But what about the idealism that this movement was started with? The

> > idealism that had westerners adopting Indian dress, food, religious

> > practices, etc.?

> >

>

> There should be exemplary devotees who continue to manifest all that, as

> a wonderful ideal for others to aspire to. But if they try to cram it

> down others

> throats, it won't be very palatable,and hence not very successful.

 

The 1st sentence here is nice.

 

Sorry you think that it's being "crammed down others throats"...

 

Oh, well... guess we've got to approach it differently or something?

 

I thought Srila Prabhupada's clear instructions in this regard were

enough... but I guess "others" don't see it that way, eh?

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > >

> > > But what about the idealism that this movement was started with? The

> > > idealism that had westerners adopting Indian dress, food, religious

> > > practices, etc.?

 

> > There should be exemplary devotees who continue to manifest all that,

> > as a wonderful ideal for others to aspire to. But if they try to cram

> > it down others throats, it won't be very palatable,and hence not very

> > successful.

>

> The 1st sentence here is nice.

>

> Sorry you think that it's being "crammed down others throats"...

>

> Oh, well... guess we've got to approach it differently or something?

>

> I thought Srila Prabhupada's clear instructions in this regard were

> enough... but I guess "others" don't see it that way, eh?

 

 

 

Basu Ghosh Prabhu, don't you think Srila Prabhupada gave "clear

instructions" to implement varnasrama training for all ISKCON devotees and

to open varnasrama colleges in every center of the movement? Or are you like

the "others" who don't see it that way?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/24/99 7:01:08 AM Central Standard Time,

Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<< My point is that if we can establish the actual Vedic culture then we will

be happy, otherwise in some way or another we will experience some kind of

disatisfaction. This is my belief, so why should I give up trying to

practice it or preach it. >>

 

The reason I said that I see the tendency in America of devotees leaning more

towards western culture (we are having a Thanksgiving feast tomorrow in the

temple) is that after most devotees move out of the asrama, KC becomes a part

of their lives, and in some cases a small part - so small that even though

they live a few houses away from the temple, they rarely come. So they their

lives naturally become more "Americanized" since this culture is already

deeply rooted in them.

 

Another thing I am noticing is that because of the above, many devotees have

mentalities that are not always suited for the "vedic' solution to their

problems. It is something like telling someone to follow a certain diet for

their health that they can't follow. In this case, a different approach to

their health problem wouldl be required.

 

I am not saying this is good or that we don't run the risk of absorbing too

much indigenous culture, and that we shouldn't apply vedic principles

whenever and wherever we can. But just as you are concerned that we may

compromise vedic culture (and I am concerned also), I am concerned that in

the process of doing this, we may also alienate some people or not be able to

help some people solve their problems.

 

For example, there are many useful books on marriage, conflict resolution,

child raising, etc. that have helped devotees in areas where standard vedic

instruction either is not helping or where we just don't have enough vedic

details on the subject. Seeing this has made me think a bit about the concept

of what the western mind needs and finds helpful. I would venture to say that

the skills taught in these books will do more to prevent divorce for many

devotees than the adoption of traditional vedic family roles and attitudes

will do (if they can even asopt them in the first place) I am not saying

that the concepts in these books are better than vedic principles, only that

they may work better for the more westernized devotee. Perhaps we can look at

it like Prabhupada asking us to chant 64 rounds, then going down to 32 and

then coming to 16. It is possible that for many devotees chanting of 64

rounds would make some devotees anxious and disturbed and actually cause them

to loose a taste for chanting.

 

I hope I have made myself more clear and would appreciate your feedback.

 

Your servant,

 

Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/26/99 7:41:14 AM Central Standard Time,

Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

<< I thought Srila Prabhupada's clear instructions in this regard were

enough... but I guess "others" don't see it that way, eh?

>>

Since Prabhupada re-evaluated some preaching stategies when he saw that some

things didn't work, some devotees question what Prabhupada would have changed

if he were still alive. Of course, no one can know what he would have

changed, but I think we can safely say he would have changed some things. So

the problems is that the clear instructions also contain details that some

may feel are not totally applicable or working as well as they were intended.

Perhaps this will help you see why "others may not see it this way" or see

why what is clear may not be so clear .

 

Your servant,

 

Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

>

> The reason I said that I see the tendency in America of devotees leaning more

> towards western culture (we are having a Thanksgiving feast tomorrow in the

> temple) is that after most devotees move out of the asrama, KC becomes a part

> of their lives, and in some cases a small part - so small that even though

> they live a few houses away from the temple, they rarely come. So they their

> lives naturally become more "Americanized" since this culture is already

> deeply rooted in them.

 

Part of being Americanized is out of necessity. It takes a village to raise a

child. As the temple in NV provides little or no support (and I am not

interested in financial support) in child rearing, not even having a Sunday

School, or any kind of activities at all for teenagers, I turn to where I can

get it.

 

For me, this has taken the form of getting the boys involved in sports. It

provides discipline and cleaner association in a palatable form, and is an

activity that absorbs a lot of that nervous energy they need to burn off.

 

The problem is that the socio economic paradigm of the temple is geared for an

18-24 year old childless male. There are no real multiple choices, it is

either

try to adhere to an unrealistic standard, or step off and deal as necessity

demands in the broader society.

 

That is where VAD needs to be brought into the picture, as it certainly isn't

yet.

[Guest guest]

ing Americanized is out of necessity. It takes a village to raise a

child. As the temple in NV provides little or no support (and I am not

interested in financial support) in child rearing, not even having a Sunday

School, or any kind of activities at all for teenagers, I turn to where I

can get it.>>>

While I can appreciate what you are saying, I can also appreciate how many

times "the temple" provided, and is still providing support in the form of

facility for parents and children. There is a wonderfully equipped nursury

room for ex. or the new $10,000 rec room, for another example, that are

going unused because there is no one parent coming forward to supervise

these areas. NV has also provided a hockey field and basket ball area for

the teens. It is unfair to say "the temple" is not providing when it is the

parents who are not coming forward and entering into the picture to assist

in developing the existing facilites. The last time a Sunday School was

attempted, only about four kids showed up and then that dwindled. Again, the

parents HAVE to be involved with their childrens lives, as you are involved

with yours.

[Guest guest]

At 7:24 AM -0800 11/28/99, COM: Malati (dd) ACBSP (Columbus - USA) wrote:

 

>There is a wonderfully equipped nursury

>room for ex. or the new $10,000 rec room, for another example, that are

>going unused because there is no one parent coming forward to supervise

>these areas.

 

Many parents prefer to teach or play with their young children at home

rather than hand them over to someone who might abuse them. What tends to

happen with nursery schools is that parents get feel that they can drop

their young children off to someone else who will teach them Krsna

consciousness while the parents "go out and preach".

 

>It is unfair to say "the temple" is not providing when it is the

>parents who are not coming forward and entering into the picture to assist

>in developing the existing facilites.

 

It's good if children participate with the adults during the Sunday feast

program. If babies or toddlers are causing a disturbance they can find a

place outside the temple room where they can play while they mothers listen

to class.

 

>The last time a Sunday School was

>attempted, only about four kids showed up and then that dwindled. Again, the

>parents HAVE to be involved with their childrens lives, as you are involved

>with yours.

 

Yes parents should be responsible for their own children-- before they take

on the service of teaching others' children. I have seen where a parent was

teaching the younger children in nursery school while their older children

were running around the temple causing a disturbance. Sunday school is

something the older women (their husbands too) could be doing.

 

Your servant, Sita dd

[Guest guest]

"COM: Malati (dd) ACBSP (Columbus - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2814298 from COM]

>

> ing Americanized is out of necessity. It takes a village to raise a

> child. As the temple in NV provides little or no support (and I am not

> interested in financial support) in child rearing, not even having a Sunday

> School, or any kind of activities at all for teenagers, I turn to where I

> can get it.>>>

> While I can appreciate what you are saying, I can also appreciate how many

> times "the temple" provided, and is still providing support in the form of

> facility for parents and children.

 

I can appreciate that in the minds of the temple devotees that they think they

are doing so much. In reality, despite what they think, they aren't doing

much.

 

> There is a wonderfully equipped nursury

> room for ex.

 

Which was put in under pressure from the parents, with resistance by the

temple. It took a visitor named Emmanuel, who came in the interfaith period,

not as a bhakta, to put that over the top. but yes, it is a nice room.

Unfortunately for me, all my children were past the age it would have been

useful by the time it was established.

 

> or the new $10,000 rec room, for another example, that are

> going unused because there is no one parent coming forward to supervise

> these areas.

 

Case in point. This rec room has been open, let's see, a total of one day?

I was not consulted as to whether this would have been a good thing to have at

all. After it was a done deal and already set up, was the first time the

parents were even approached about being involved. Some temple devotee ,

without consulting the general group of parents, decides what it was we

needed, built something without refernce to our real needs or desires, and

then lays a guilt trip on us that we don't come forth and take up the

management

of it.

 

Personally, since you brought it up, the money was ill spent on a facility

that has little attraction to my kids, and was put in a location that was

extremely ill advised (that's a whole different topic).

 

> NV has also provided a hockey field and basket ball area for

> the teens.

 

Actually, again a case of parental involvement. in a project that was done

against the wishes of temple management. The money was raised by gurukulis for

the project, and it had to be done while Kirtananada was in India for 6 weeks

because he opposed it. It was Varsana who acceded to the desires, of the

gurukulis and parents to build that facility, and he took a lot of grief from

Kirtanananda for doing so.

 

Just in the last few years, Danavir even took a decision to shut it down,

and

was only backed off by the angry reaction of the broader community.

 

> It is unfair to say "the temple" is not providing when it is the

> parents who are not coming forward and entering into the picture to assist

> in developing the existing facilites.

 

I put my seed in the most fertile ground, which is the larger "karmi"

community

at this point, where there is more than lip service to child development. But

I

see you do agree, it is all on the parents.

 

> The last time a Sunday School was

> attempted, only about four kids showed up and then that dwindled. Again, the

> parents HAVE to be involved with their childrens lives, as you are involved

> with yours.

 

Well, I ran a soccer game between the Sunday School and the noon program, as

part of that program, and consistently had 10 to 12 older boys there. That

didn't include younger kids or girls. So if someone is feeding you those

"facts" about 4 kids, you should re evaluate the weight you give that source.

>From the time my youngest was 5 to 10 years old, out of a six year period,

there was a Sunday School once for three months . Yes, the parents have to

be

involved with their kids, because the temple sure isn't.

[Guest guest]

Dear Basu Ghosh prabhu,

 

I'd just like to respectfully point out one thing. Many of the ladies in

ISKCON, and I'm sure many that were present in Vrndavana during the incident

under discussion, have been extremely tolerant over their many years in

ISKCON. For example, for over 20 years they had to make their own

arrangements to have darshan of their beloved Deities (that they sewed for,

cooked for, made jewelry for, etc.) because they had to stay in the back of

the temple room during all temple functions. They have been discriminated

against, treated as second or third class citizens, treated as a burden, a

problem, while at the same time forced to go out and approach strange men to

collect money to support the temples. Many have not been given simple basic

bodily requirements needed by them and their children. They've been passed

over for service they were qualified for in favor or a male who may be less

qualified. The list goes on and on.

 

I'm amazed that one time in how many decades, a group of ladies does

something the men deem inappropriate and so many men find it intolerable.

 

your humble servant,

 

Mamata devi dasi

 

 

On Wed, 24 Nov 99 07:39 +0530, COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)

wrote:

 

> [Text 2802799 from COM]

>

> >

> >

> > "COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)" wrote:

> >

> > > [Text 2800634 from COM]

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The point is this, if men: grihasthas, sannyasis, gurus, etc.,

are

> > > > > expected to act in an ideal way (even if they aren't), then why

not

> > > > > the women? Unless they truly want to be second-class citizens.

> > > >

> > > > Good point, and well put forth.

> > > >

> > > > Opposite side of the question is, if the men aren't acting in an

> > > > ideal way, should the women still be held to that ideal standard?

> > >

> > > So the implied logic here is that we should all remain like animals -

> > > all neglecting to develop the behavior recommended in vedic

literatures?

> >

> > I wouldn't have been able to twist that out of there. The intent was to

> > convey that we should judge one class by a standard and condemn them,

> > while exempting another and glorifying them.

> >

> > The idea is that we need to help bring people up, not push people

down.

> > Become exemplary by raising our own standard, not make our standrd the

de

> > facto best by pushing other's down. Wise words... well put.

>

> For once I agree with you fully, MG Prabhu...

>

> And yet if certain agressive ladies try to smash the traditions that are

> intact in Vrindavan without resorting to a dialogue... trying to force a

> change right there in the Mandir by fighting... should we remain quiet?

 

 

 

 

 

______________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

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[Guest guest]

Case in point. This rec room has been open, let's see, a total of one

day?

I was not consulted as to whether this would have been a good thing to have

at all. After it was a done deal and already set up, was the first time

the

parents were even approached about being involved. Some temple devotee ,

without consulting the general group of parents, decides what it was we

needed, built something without refernce to our real needs or desires, and

then lays a guilt trip on us that we don't come forth and take up the

management of it.>>>>>This is NOT a "guilt trip," but an observation made

while trying to accomodate various requests, such as your own. The "temple"

did not decide upon the Rec Room...that came from outside grihastra folks

including visiting guests with children, who also raised the rrequired

funds; the temple devotees did assist with the required construction upon

request. You might want to ask the other gruhastras involved why you

weren't consulted, if that was the case. But,now, the same grihastra persons

ares unable to supervise, and there is not one else forthcoming, even though

the facility has been officially open since Labor Day, back in September!

 

This is NOT meant as an attack, simply a reply to your comment that the

temple doesn't do anything, implying that there is no care.

 

I might also add that it is the 'temple' devotees\who cook (& then clean up)

for the entire community every Sunday feast, as well as every major

festival.....hardly asign of uncaring.........

[Guest guest]

> Some temple devotee ,

> without consulting the general group of parents, decides what it was we

> needed, built something without refernce to our real needs or desires, and

> then lays a guilt trip on us that we don't come forth and take up the

> management of it.>>>>>This is NOT a "guilt trip," but an observation made

> while trying to accomodate various requests, such as your own.

 

Good.

 

> The "temple"

> did not decide upon the Rec Room...that came from outside grihastra folks

> including visiting guests with children, who also raised the rrequired

> funds;

 

Which is my point, that if I have to be the one who is mostly responsible, I

will put my energy where it is best leveraged out, which unfortunately is not

the temple.

 

>

> This is NOT meant as an attack, simply a reply to your comment that the

> temple doesn't do anything, implying that there is no care.

 

I certainly didn't mean to say there was no care. I definitely mean to say

there is inadequate care. The origin of this point was as a counter to the

argument that Western devotees can't stay in krsna consciousness, and fall

back

into their original culture. I meant the point to show that the socio-

economic

paradigm of ISKCON in general in the West is inadequate to enable devotees with

children to remain as involved as a childless male, or males with children

only

under age of 5.

 

The insinuation of the post I was countering was that Western devotees are by

nature unable to sustain devotional life in a so called "Vedic" manner. I was

trying to point out that it takes a whole village to raise a child, and

socially, ISKCON is not there yet. i was defending devotees, not meaning to

malign temples.

 

As far as that goes, I would say that New Vrindaban is probably better than

most places when it comes to community support, in that there are a lot of

householders who are struggling with socio- economic realities but still

staying

at least peripherally involved with the community.

 

Western devotees were asked to break ties with the older generations in order

to

help establish Krsna Consciousness in the West. In India, it is possible to

be

Krsna Conscious because and still maintain close relationships with older

generations because there is that remnant of Vedic culture there, so it is

much

easier. In the West, we are having to have some patience, waiting for the

first couple of generations to age and mature, so the 3rd generation will have

that Vedic experience of older generational support.

 

To denigrate Western devotees who have had to make much greater family

sacrifices to be Krsna conscious, is to criticize someone in a shower for

being

dirty. Until the older devotees finish discharging their natural duties, and

bring their experince and now free time to the temples, we won't have that

village paradigm. That is simply a fact. Pointing this out was not meant as a

slur on New Vrindaban, but rather as a defense of devotees I saw being

maligned.

 

I think New Vrindaban is a great place, that doesn;t mean I don't get

frustrating hoping it was better.

 

>

> I might also add that it is the 'temple' devotees\who cook (& then clean up)

> for the entire community every Sunday feast, as well as every major

> festival.....hardly asign of uncaring.........

 

As for cooking for the "entire community", you should objectively see who

actually goes - my definition of the "entire community " obviously differs

from yours.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, COM: Mahatma (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

> What I am seeing more and more here in America, (maybe this was obvious

> before but I was blind to it), is that westerners, including initiated

> devotees, do not adapt so well to many vedic principles. I am not saying this

 

> is good, I am only saying that this is how it is and I can only see this

> trend increasing.

Is it remotely possible that this trend stems from the various

types of associations we (i.e., Westerners) have chosen, and seem to have

chosen increasingly, since Prabhupada's departure? Bhagavad-gita

(2.62, etc., etc.) certainly suggests this. Maybe this also relates to

your observation that Krishna conscious practices around the world often

carry a good deal of local coloration. When it's so difficult to adopt

Krishna's principles to begin with, a greater danger is to adapt these to

local circumstances without also introducing any essential compromises;

I suspect to do so successfully requires the unsullied vision of a pure

devotee and acharya's guidance. But universal recognition of such a

mahatma is now practically an impossibility in ISKCON. This is simply

exacerbated if we also encourage a mode of discourse w/r/t the pure

devotees which will most likely accomodate some hint of offensive

"martya-buddhi" (notions of mortality--cf. the "jAti-buddhi" so

disparaged by the Padmapurana).

Although some variation is natural, acceptable, and often even

desirable, we should try to avoid any adulteration of our fundamental

principles, such as our practical estimation of the bonafide guru as

superhuman (cf. Bhagavatam, 11.17.27). Perhap Prabhupada established

daily guru-puja in ISKCON (unlike annual guru-pujas elsewhere) not only

because this is the essence of vaishnavism (Bhagavatam, 7.5.32), but

because he was well aware that Western religions don't like "godmen,"

while Western intellectuals cannot restrain their envious tendency for

dismissing traditonal tutelage in relative terms like "cultural

traditions," etc., and that those of us socialized by these agents are

definitely affected by such association--more than we realize, in many or

most cases.

This can generally apply to discussions of applied "Vedic

principles," which I'm taking as varnashrama-dharma, as well.

 

 

> And I can see how certain western ideas are better

> suited to westerners i.e it just works for them.

This isn't clear to me, since one's concepts of what "works" is

entirely relative to one's purpose, while ultimately, religion--like

love--has never been practical at all.

 

MDd