Two kinds of flies: one likes sugar, the other likes sores.

[Guest guest]

PAMHO AGTSP

 

>I still believe in the same ideals and I still think vedic culture

>is vastly superior to western materialism but after ten years of firsthand

>experience of socalled vedic India I have to admit that I became quite

>disillusioned with the India of today because it appears to be almost as

>materialistic as the west.

 

 

Materialists have always been in India. Even Lord Krishna says manusyanam

sahasreshu. . . "Out of many thousands among men. . ." If that was true

then, it would certainly be true now, in Kali-yuga.

 

>Nowadays it

>is not anymore completely safe for a western mataji to go to the Ganga

>unaccompanied. There are too many shady characters and drunkards who are

>simply waiting to sexually harass a white skinned girl.

 

 

Why only "white skinned"? Any girl will be harassed by dacoits and shady

characters if she is not protected.

 

>I have also firsthand experience of the numerous scandals . . .

 

Yes, agreed, there is an ugly side, but there is a beautiful side as well.

Accepting that besides this "ugly side", there is the "beautiful side", why

do we only hear the details about the "ugly side", and only platitudes

(minimal words for sure) for the good side? Also you, below you mention

that there are wonderful remnants of dharma, and Mataji Madhusudani has also

said the same. But what details of the good aspects, compared with the

details offered of the bad, have been described?

 

I don't know so much about Mayapur, but in Vrindavan, I have found that many

westerners residing there tend to wrap themselves in a kind of bubble of

western culture, lifestyle, keep to themselves, etc. For example, if you

want to travel from Mathura to Vrindavan, a tempo costs Rs. 10/-, and you

get to where you are going reasonably quickly. But I have seen western

devotees who live there (and I'm not talking about pregnant mothers or

visiting devotees) take an autorickshaw back and forth, sometimes daily, for

Rs. 70/- or 80/-. I asked one devotee (living there for the past 10 years)

why he does this, his answer: "It's only 3 dollars. . ." This example may

not seem like something that illustrates what is the Indian culture

(actually, it is more like an anti-example--what Indian culture is not),

particularly that which Srila Prabhupada had regard for, but for Srila

Prabhupada spending the least money for goods, services, transportation was

paramount; this is true for the common Indian.

 

In Vrindavan, I have also seen that westerners prefer to hang out with

westerners. How will you learn anything if you "keep to your own kind"?

But Srila Prabhupada had aparently anticipated this and built facility in

Vrindavan and Mayapur so that they could stay in the dhama with some of the

comforts they are used to. Personally, I have no problem with that.

However, for that class of devotee who comes to India, stays, and yet

maintains a cultural distance, surely there will be disillusionment, because

certianly he will see more of the bad and less of the good. This tendency

is natural, because as long as one is not a pure devotee, his heart will

have a propensity to criticize others (nindadi sunya hridam ipsita sanga

labdhya -- a pure devotee's heart is completely devoid of the propensity to

criticize others).

 

As far as this self is concerned, when I came to India, I made it a point to

associatiate as much as possible with Indians and avoid hanging out with my

own kind (unless they were the kind that were similarly impressed by the

culture, and they were far and few between). And the experiences I have had

were most rewarding, and I feel, far outweigh any statistics that might be

conjured up.

 

For example, one time while I was in South India, Vijaywada, on book

distribution, I had the fortune to frequent a Sri Vaishnava ashrama during

the Krishna (River) Pushkaram Mela, which occurs once every 12 years when

the Krishna river overflows and is a big event for sadhus and pious people.

At that ashrama, I was meeting with their sadhus, gurukulis, etc., and

discussing spiritual topics. They kept wondering if I was a sannyasi

(because traditionally, only sannyasis wear saffron cloth, brahmacaris wear

yellow, or white). And they were checking me out too, seeing what I know,

etc. So, I was quoting slokas from Bhagavad-gita, and there was this

elderly brahmana who was listening, and he stopped me, and corrected my

pronunciation. In the course of the discussion I was having, he would

continue to stop me and correct my pronunciation. After some time, the

discussion stopped, and I started to softly chant on my beads.

 

The elderly brahmana started putting his ear closer to my face, to hear what

I was chanting, and as he kept putting his ear closer. I would chant softer

and softer, and his ear came almost right in my face. I couldn't prevent

him from hearing me. He said, "You are not pronouncing the Hare Krishna

mantra properly," and he mimicked my pronunciation, with a perfect American

accent. He continued, "You do like this," and he chanted slowly the mantra

and implored me to also do so. After about five minutes of this, he was

dissatisfied with my progress. But he was determined. He brought me to an

air-conditioned room in the ashrama's complex, sat me down, and started

drilling me on the proper chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra for 45

minutes. (Sri Vaishnavas also chant the Hare Krishna mahamantra, but in

bhajan and kirtan, not in japa as we do.) It was the most intense session

in sound training I had had since music school.

 

Finally, he was satisfied with my progress, but told me I have to keep

practicing.

 

I have many more such experiences. I would not have experienced any of them

had I maintained my cultural distance.

 

You ask why devotees who "see the glass half empty" are drawing so much

flack from myself, Guru Krishna Prabhu, and others, is because we feel that

such quoting of statistics reinforces cultural biases that, unfortunately,

many western devotees have, and secondly, such one-sided presentations

wrongly discredit some Vedic aspects of Indian society which are still

intact (albeit not like they used to be)--marriage being one of those

aspects of Vedic culture that are still quite strong in Indian society, and

something us westerners can learn from.

 

If you quote some statistics that make it appear that every Indian man is

wife-beater (or most of them anyway), then what purpose does it serve?

Emphasizing the problems without putting them in their proper context steers

devotees away from good examples that they can learn from. We therefore

consider such efforts to discredit Indian society with regard to the aspects

of Vedic culture that are still practiced by people in general to be

contrary to the purpose of a balanced discussion.

 

So far, most of the discussion has been by westerners speaking about India,

and Indian culture. During the discussion, here is what one Indian

gentleman had to say:

 

>[Text 2807465 from COM]

>

>All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

>

>xyz Prabhu:

>

>> I agree completely. If the issue is that we need to focus on those

aspects

>> of Indian culture

>

>ALL aspects of Indian culture are good! It is the western influence in

India

>that is bad. The same goes for ISKCON.

>

>> And I just don't seee how imitating those

>> aspects of Indian culture that are associated with alcoholism, domestic

>> violence and STDs are going to get us any closer to Krsna.

>

>Huh? Do you honestly think alcoholism, illicit sex, etc. are aspects of

>Indian culture? Think again, please! If anything, they are western

>'culture'. Besides, I had the good fortune to see at first hand -- even as

a

>second generation Indian -- the application and adherence of a Vedic

>Vaisnava culture, not only in my family but in the whole Indian community.

I

>never came across such things as alcoholism or illicit sex. Indian culture

>(the meaning of culture is 'form or type of civilization') is entirely

Vedic

>in character; problems such as alcoholism and illicit sex are currently

part

>of Indian society (not culture) due the influence of the West. It is sad,

>and needs correcting desperately.

>

>A dead elephant is worth just as much as when it is alive. This was a

>proverb Srila Prabhupada quoted. Similarly, Indian culture is dying (or is

>practically dead) due to the influence of the West. But it still is just as

>valuable to imbibe.

>

>Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

>

>Nayan.

 

Personally, I and others like Guru Krishna Prabhu 100% concur with the above

devotee's views.

 

Regarding my seeing the glass half full, and others seeing it as half empty,

I'll take the half of the glass that is full, any day. For those who want

the empty portion of the glass, that is their misfortune, because you don't

get anything from nothing. If someone goes to India with that mentality (or

acquires it while staying there), seeing only the empty part of the

glass--the problems, etc.,-- then that is what you will see, the problems,

the backwardness, etc. Certainly, people with that mentality (yes, that

also includes many Indians who live there), even if they live there, are

barred from the wonderful experiences I have described.

 

Of course, if you don't see the problems, then there is no impetus to

preach. Problems are also important :-) Lord Caitanya appeared to save

people (yes, Indians, as well as everyone else) from their materialistic

lives. Materialists have been around as long as the material world has been

around. (Otherwise, why do you have a material world?)

 

Still, at the same time, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath

water. The point I have been making, all along, is that the institution of

marriage, as it is generally practiced among Indian couples even today, is

still something that us westerners can look to and learn from. I personally

am married to an Indian who is born and brought up in India, and I have had

the chance first hand to see and experience what is married life in

India--not only from my own marriage, but from others in my extended family,

neighbors, and others with whom I have had daily dealings. And from what I

have seen in the course of ordinary dealings with them are ways of doing

things which could only help those coming from a society in which marriage

is practically an imagination. This is why it pains me and others when we

hear propaganda to the contrary.

 

Anyway, I hope that from this you all can better appreciate where I and some

others are coming from (with regard to our experiences). My obeisances to

you, to Mataji Madhusudani, and all others whom I may have offended in the

course of this (heated) discussion. I beg the forgiveness of you all.

 

Your servant, Krishna-kirti das