Varna first, then Asrama

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. I

found the submission below to be of utmost depth and concern.....written by

Mata Hare Krsna Dasi. It speaks of "seeing the problems for what they

are". Not everyone wants to do that these days. All I can say is, why

do some of the gurus have 3000 plus disciples? Does it make them a better

guru to have large numbers of disciples? It is against the instructions

given in the Nectar of Instruction, in regard to who should have disciples

and how this process should be taken up. Are western devotees so far

beyond the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, that they don't need to heed

his advice? Let us all pray that somehow this Krsna Consciousness mission

can push forward. It is my opinion that we require some "super"

surrendered devotees to give their life to simply caring to guide others,

even if those others are merely a handful, 10, 20 30, or so.....and as there

are many of these in the position of temple presidents, (or other leadership

positions) my obeisances to them if they are giving the service their full

heart. It is a completely overwhelming job, accomplished only by those

whose heart is totally dedicated to serving their guru and seeing the

devotional happiness of others. My respects to those who are carrying on

this preaching mission thousands and thousands of times.

In service to Srila

Prabhupada,

Mata Mahalaksmi Dasi

-

COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA) <Hare.Krsna.dasi (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

COM: DMW (Dharma of Men and Women) <DMW (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: IWC (Internat. Women's

Conference) <IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: (International) Women's Ministry

<Women's.Ministry (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN)

<Basu.Ghosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Cc: Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) Bowdoin (DOT) EDU>

Monday, December 06, 1999 3:18 PM

Varna first, then Asrama

 

 

> [Text 2836549 from COM]

>

>

>

> "COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S)" wrote:

>

> > [Text 2836442 from COM]

> >

> > < If there are no unmarried devotee men in the congregation then the

ladies

> > who obviously want devotee

> > > husbands see the temple brahmacaries as their only hope. If the

marriages

> > > are fixed within the congregation itself then the brahmacaries are

free to

> > > concentrate on selling Prabhupada's books.

> > >

> > Selling books for how long? And then when they are not able to sell

books

> > anymore, what happens then? When they want to get married and all the

women

> > are married to the congregational members, and the temple managment

tells

> > them that they can't maintain them any longer, specificaly if they want

to

> > get married, what happens then? What happens when after 10 or 15 years

of

> > book distribution they can't do it anymore, they have no any income, all

the

> > money they collected went for maintaining the buildings (in which they

can't

> > live anymore, because now they have to pay if they want to use them) and

> > some of the money went for the sannyasis who made their own houses and

many

> > of them meanwhile got married. The temple managers also got married,

(they

> > are not fools, they understood what is going on), despite of preaching

to

> > poor brahmacaris that perfection of life is pure renounciation and book

> > distribution. And when TP's get married they don't get married to a

> > congregational member, they choose the best one they can get.

> > PRABHU YOU ARE GREEN! Lets see what you are going to tell us in 10

years.

> >

> > Ys. Sraddha dd

>

> We have a mantra on the varnasrama.development conference: "Varna first,

then

> asrama." We heard it from Srila Prabhupada in the Varnasrama Walks in

March

> 14,

> 1974:

>

> ***************************

> Hrdayananda: So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions,

varna

> and asr... Learning a materia...

> Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is

perfectly

> in

> order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement,

and

> varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or

they're on

> the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And

when

> the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That

is

> later on.

> Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so

many

> unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be

no

> question of unemployment.

>

> ***********************

>

> As we continue to neglect the extremely practical and psychologically

realistic

> instruction of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain,

> disappointment and confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be

> brahmanas -- even though we insist on training them that way.

>

> Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

> master

> should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing

his

> devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

master

> should designate the varna of of a disciple:

>

> *****************************

> Prabhupada: So apart from that metaphysical, from this worldly platform,

there

> must be divisions. Just like in your bank, if everyone is manager, that is

not

> possible. There must be clerks and other assistants. So that is required.

The

> society must be divided into four classes. That is brahmana, ksatriya,

vaisya,

> sudra.

> Banker: My question is how does one determine into which part he goes?

> Prabhupada: Yes. That is by tendency. Guna-karma-vibhagasah. By the

tendency.

> Therefore one has to approach the spiritual master. He will give direction

that

> "This boy is meant for becoming a brahmana." Everyone has got some

tendency.

> >From the tendency it should be designated.

>

> ============ REF. Room Conversation with Banker -- September 21, 1973,

Bombay

>

> *****************************

>

> Now -- just imagine -- how would this scenario play out, say if, just as

an

> experiment, we tried to follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions on this

matter

> for even one year.

>

> A young man would come into the temple, attracted to Krsna consciousness.

As

> he

> becomes inspired by the preaching of some more advanced devotee, he would

ask

> him to be his spiritual master. Then, as their discussions progressed,

the

> devotee would ask, "What do you think would be the best varna for me to

try to

> serve Krsna?" The spiritual master would ask different questions to

discover

> the background, propensities and areas of expertise of the devotee. He

would

> say, "I think you would be the happiest if you developed the skills in

> such-and-such varna. Why don't you begin to get training in that area for

> awhile, and we'll see how this works out for you."

>

> Then the devotee would begin to be trained in a varna which is suitable

for his

> psycho-physical type. Maybe the first attempt would not be quite right.

After

> more consultation with his spiritual master, he would go into another area

of

> training. Then he would find an occupation at which he would be satisfied

> serving Krsna. By learning to serve Krsna by his particular occupation --

> under

> the guidance of a bona-fide spiritual master -- he would move towards

spiritual

> perfection, exactly as described by Krsna:

>

> ******************

> By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now

please

> hear from Me how this can be done. By worship of the Lord, who is the

source

> of

> all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through

> performing his own work.

>

> Bg 18.45-46

> ******************

>

> So now he is being trained in his occupational duty -- which will provide

the

> platform for his life-long work in devotional service. Then what?

>

> Then, through further consultation with his spiritual master, he gets

guidance

> about which asrama he will be most satisfied in. His spiritual master may

feel

> that he will be most satisfied in the brahmacari asrama. So that's his

asrama.

> Or he may feel that his disciple will be most satisfied in the grhasta

asrama.

> So that's he finds a wife, and that's his asrama.

>

> Now this is quite different from being trained up for 7 years as a book

> distributor brahmacari and then "falling down" into marriage. First of

all,

> every thing he has done is with the encouragement of his spiritual

master -- so

> there is no feeling of defeat for not remaining a brahmacari.

>

> Second of all, he already has good training in a viable occupational

skill. He

> actually has the means to support his wife, before he even gets married.

This

> is a way of implementing the complete, natural system advocated by Srila

> Prabhupada.

>

> Compare that with the typical sequence of events presently when the

> book-distributor brahmacari "falls down" into the grhasta asrama -- with

no

> skills and no means of support. Why on earth are we so surprised that

after

> the

> great pressure to find a job (with no skills) and support his wife, that

so

> many

> couples find themselves unable to endure the stress and unable to maintain

> their

> marriage vows?

>

> Srila Prabhupada's suggestion would work far, far better than our current

> system.

>

> ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system and

have

> the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

"That

> is

> impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

give

> them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

Srila

> Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

make

> so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

>

> Just one last look at Srila Prabhupada's statement from above -- please

note:

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now.

>

> Is Prabhupada right? Are we in a chaotic condition now?

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

Please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

I humbly need to thank you for you letter, it is the first time that I

really read a practical solution to ALL ISKCON problems. Now it is time to

quickly start make those changes, in order to heal our society, but my

question is if you had been told that it wouldn't work, then is there some

hope? For one side we hear that Gurus say that they cann't reject a

candidate if he ask for shelter but at the same time, because they have so

many discipules is very hard for them to manage care for the discipules...

 

> ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system

and have

> the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

"That

> is

> impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

give

> them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

Srila

> Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

make

> so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

 

Do our actual leader still think that it is imposible? If they think so,

where are they guiding us, neglecting Srila Prabhupada's instructions? I

don't mean to be offensive with the question, I'm just trying to

understand... how can we trust those who aren't loyaly following Srila

Prabhupada's teachings.

 

Again, Thank you very much,

 

your servant, Sridhari dd

>

> Just one last look at Srila Prabhupada's statement from above -- please

note:

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into

four

> varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

> position

> now.

>

> Is Prabhupada right? Are we in a chaotic condition now?

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Sridhari (dd) JPS (Mendoza - ARG) wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

>

> I humbly need to thank you for you letter, it is the first time that I

> really read a practical solution to ALL ISKCON problems. Now it is time to

> quickly start make those changes, in order to heal our society, but my

 

Thank you for your kind response. But we have not yet heard from those

who are opposed to this aspect of Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I'm

sure they will have something to say.

 

> question is if you had been told that it wouldn't work, then is there some

> hope? For one side we hear that Gurus say that they cann't reject a

> candidate if he ask for shelter but at the same time, because they have so

> many discipules is very hard for them to manage care for the discipules...

 

 

We need to implement guru-selection training for our bhaktas. Otherwise

our current gurus will continue to be too overloaded to invest much time

and energy in providing meaningful varna counseling to their disciples.

Obviously, this will be a disaster if a guru just waves his hand and

pronounces, "You are a sudra; you are a vaisya; you are a brahmana" and so

on. Practically speaking, that type of designation of varna cannot work.

It will require more time and sensitivity.

 

One way around the over-burdened guru obstacle to developing varnasrama

that has been suggested is to encourage diksa gurus to encourage their

disciples to also take siksa gurus who would then do the actual varna

counseling and guidance. So this might be one possibility. It seems

unnecessarily round-about to me, but it might provide a valuable start in

the right direction.

 

I think the real solution lies in recognizing that there are already many

humble, but highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada in our movement

who could be initiating their own disciples. To me they constitute a

vast, under-utilized resource in our movement. Let's train our bhaktas in

how to recognize these devotees and approach them for initiation.

 

I'm sure this will be a highly controversial point, but I think that

recent events have shown that our current "no-objection" method of

sanctioning a guru's ability to initiate has not been very successful in

protecting devotees against bogus gurus -- when approximately 50% of those

we had "no objection" to have fallen down. The latest such example, if I

understand correctly, is Dhanudhara Swami who has just been told that the

resume initiation in a couple more years, in spite of having a record of

violence and intimidation against ISKCON's children. Surely a solidly

developed program of guru-selection training could help bhaktas select

more qualified spiritual guidance than this.

 

Why should wonderful devotees like Nagaraja dasa, Pranada dasi, Kaulini

dasi, Yamaraja dasa, Jyotirmayi dasi, Visaka dasi, Krishna Dharma dasa and

Pancaratna dasa be ignored while others become overburdened with

disciples? It's almost offensive to mention only their names without

mentioning dozens more qualified Prabhupada disciples who currently have

no disciples of their own. And yet, because we do not conscientiously

train our bhaktas to recognize devotees like this as their personal

spiritual guides, these spiritual treasures of ISKCON's go under-utilized.

 

 

And it does no good to claim "no objection" does not mean that we claim

someone is qualified to initiate disciples, it just means that we have "no

objection." The practical fact is that the "no objection" list is the

defacto list of approved gurus in ISKCON. Probably more than 99% of all

ISKCON bhaktas will select as their guru someone who appears on the "no

objection" list. The reality is that to them "no objection" means "bona

fide spiritual master." That's how it plays out in real life.

 

> > ****NOTE: Whenever I suggest that we follow Srila Prabhupada's system

> and have

> > the spiritual master provide varna guidance to his disciples, I am told

> "That

> > is

> > impossible. How can a guru with 3000 disciples know them well enough to

> give

> > them guidance in their occupational duty as suggested by Prabhupada?" My

> > response is, after we've gone through so much suffering by not following

> Srila

> > Prabhupada's suggestion, maybe we should think of what changes we need to

> make

> > so we *can* follow his suggestion.***

>

> Do our actual leader still think that it is imposible? If they think so,

> where are they guiding us, neglecting Srila Prabhupada's instructions? I

> don't mean to be offensive with the question, I'm just trying to

> understand... how can we trust those who aren't loyaly following Srila

> Prabhupada's teachings.

>

> Again, Thank you very much,

>

> your servant, Sridhari dd

 

I guess I want to point out that we must still recognize that there are

actually a number of initiating spiritual masters and GBC who are serious

about establishing self-sufficient villages and starting varnasrama.

Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja has done a lot of work on this, and I know that

Bhakti-Raghava Maharaja was working to develop a self-sufficient village.

Another one is Gunagrahi Maharaja, who is working on community development

in South America. There are probably others also.

 

So, it really is not fair to say that none of our leaders are working on

carrying out Srila Prabhupada's vision. One thing that has made it very

difficult to make progress so far is that so many people have ideas other

than the picture of simple living and varnasrama villages that Srila

Prabhupada presented. Instead, they become side-tracked by various Vedic

rituals and standards, or worse yet, even different business philosophies

that they think will develop community. Some of these things may have a

place in developing varnasrama, but it cannot be successful if we attempt

to give them the central place. The only thing that will be successful is

if we make Srila Prabhupada's vision -- which is specifically adapted for

our present age -- the central model.

 

I hope that now that we have at least one book which is composed entirely

of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama and farm community

development, this will help create a common understanding of what he

wanted varnsrama to be for us. That common vision should help things

develop with somewhat more smoothly.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

At 6:18 PM -0500 12/6/99, COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA) wrote:

>[Text 2836549 from COM]

 

>We have a mantra on the varnasrama.development conference: "Varna first, then

>asrama." We heard it from Srila Prabhupada in the Varnasrama Walks in March

>14,

>1974:

 

>***************************

>Hrdayananda: So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna

>and asr... Learning a materia...

>Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly

>in

>order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and

>varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or

>they're on

>the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when

>the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is

>later on.

>Hrdayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

>Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four

>varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the

>position

>now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many

>unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no

>question of unemployment.

>

>***********************

 

 

HKdd quotes a section of "Varnasrama Walks in March 14, 1974" and yet

neglects and/or compromises other sections. For examaple, in this same

Varnsrama Walk, Srila Prabhupada was asked how women would be trained

according to their varna. Prabhupada said they receive no varnsaram raining

in Varnasrama College; he barred women from Varnasrama College!

 

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to

cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana,

ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras.

That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-sudra means.

That's all. They should assist the higher class.

 

Yet HKdd insists that women be allowed to act as brahmanas, ksatriyas and

vaisyas which Prabhupada has clearly established as exclusively male

domains. She has already emphatically stated that if "we continue to

neglect the extremely practical and psychologically realistic instruction

of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain, disappointment and

confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be brahmanas -- even

though we insist on training them that way." Yet we see how see backs down

from applying the complete instruction on varnasrama training propounding

instead her "puffed up concept of womanly life." What do you call someone

who does what he(she) condemns others of doing?

 

>Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

>master

>should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing his

>devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

>master

>should designate the varna of of a disciple:

 

Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

her husband?

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

At 4:42 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

>[Text 2838450 from COM]

>

>> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

>> her husband?

>>

> Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

>position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

>men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

>animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

 

What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

(including GBC)?!

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

Srila

Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the varna

of

the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you advocate.

 

I will not get involved at this point in any discussion of whether women have

varnas. That is not the subject of the current conversation. If you want to

begin

that discussion -- please start with a different header. Don't just set up a

straw

man or red herring to divert our focus from the subject at hand.

 

I will not discuss the topic of women at this time.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote:

 

> At 6:18 PM -0500 12/6/99, COM: Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)

wrote:

> >[Text 2836549 from COM]

>

>

> Yet HKdd insists that women be allowed to act as brahmanas, ksatriyas and

> vaisyas which Prabhupada has clearly established as exclusively male

> domains. She has already emphatically stated that if "we continue to

> neglect the extremely practical and psychologically realistic instruction

> of our founder/acayra, we will forever experience pain, disappointment and

> confusion as our new recruits don't all turn out to be brahmanas -- even

> though we insist on training them that way." Yet we see how see backs down

> from applying the complete instruction on varnasrama training propounding

> instead her "puffed up concept of womanly life." What do you call someone

> who does what he(she) condemns others of doing?

>

> >Rather than force every young man to be a brahmana, a devotee's spiritual

> >master

> >should give him guidance as to which varna he will be most satisfied doing

his

> >devotional service in. Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual

> >master

> >should designate the varna of of a disciple:

>

> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

> ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

"COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2838450 from COM]

>

> > Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> > her husband?

> >

> Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

> position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

> men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

> animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

> Ys. Sraddha dd

 

This is a very nice response, Prabhu. However, I warn you that this is just a

typical diversionary tactic being thrown up by Sita and Jivan Mukta to divert

the discussion from the topic of whether Srila Prabhupada said that the

spiritual master should designate the disciple's varna.

 

I believe that there are also a dozen other good arguments that Srila

Prabhupada indicated that a woman is not born in a certain varna. But this is

not the place for those arguments. If Sita wants to discuss that topic, she

should start her own heading about Women and Varnas or something.

 

Let's stick to the essential topic at hand.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

>This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

>Srila

>Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the

>varna of

>the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you advocate.

 

What do you mean by "the all-male context that you advocate"? It seems by

your own refusal to include women in this topic that we should take what

you are saying to apply to men only. It is therefore not a complete

presentation, since women make up 50 percent or more of the population.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

Please delete IWC from this thread.

 

ys

 

hkdd

 

Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> [Text 2838587 from COM]

>

> >This is a real tangent and not the essence of the topic under discussion.

> >Srila

> >Prabhupada's instructions that the spiritual master should designate the

> >varna of

> >the disciple could even be applied in the all-male context that you

advocate.

>

> What do you mean by "the all-male context that you advocate"? It seems by

> your own refusal to include women in this topic that we should take what

> you are saying to apply to men only. It is therefore not a complete

> presentation, since women make up 50 percent or more of the population.

>

> Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

Dear Hare Krsna Mataji:

please accept my humble obeisances. All the glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for you instructing, sincerous and quick response.

 

>

> I think the real solution lies in recognizing that there are already many

> humble, but highly qualified disciples of Srila Prabhupada in our

movement

> who could be initiating their own disciples.

 

yes, I agree with that too, seems to be that even that may be sound

non-logical, it will be need to put a numbers of discipules that a Guru can

initiate according to his services and posibilities to practical instruct

them and care them.

 

Let's train our bhaktas in

> how to recognize these devotees and approach them for initiation.

 

yes, This is another very important point. I have seen some candidates

being inititate without even reading Bhagavad-Gita one time, or without

even understanding the minimun of Vaisnava etiquette, or even worse without

following the 4 regs. but "someone" had consider that they can be recommend

anyway. So even those who decide to recomend a candidate have to be more

serious...

 

>

> Why should wonderful devotees like Nagaraja dasa, Pranada dasi, Kaulini

> dasi, Yamaraja dasa, Jyotirmayi dasi, Visaka dasi, Krishna Dharma dasa

and

> Pancaratna dasa be ignored while others become overburdened with

> disciples? It's almost offensive to mention only their names without

> mentioning dozens more qualified Prabhupada disciples who currently have

> no disciples of their own. And yet, because we do not conscientiously

> train our bhaktas to recognize devotees like this as their personal

> spiritual guides, these spiritual treasures of ISKCON's go

under-utilized.

 

Well, let me humbly tell you that I agree with you, but for other side, in

my zone, there are almost the same Gurus coming every time so we don't know

those spiritual treasures of ISKCON yet. May be it will be nice to consider

to send some of those devotees to preach on diferent zones of the world

including this very faraway land of Argentina-Chile-Paraguay-Perú-Uruguay

etc...

 

>

> I guess I want to point out that we must still recognize that there are

> actually a number of initiating spiritual masters and GBC who are serious

> about establishing self-sufficient villages and starting varnasrama.

 

But what happened with those that don't?

 

> Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja has done a lot of work on this, and I know that

> Bhakti-Raghava Maharaja was working to develop a self-sufficient village.

> Another one is Gunagrahi Maharaja, who is working on community

development

> in South America. There are probably others also.

 

yes, I know Gunagrahi Maharaja and I am very gratefull that Lord Sri Krsna

send him to us.

>

> So, it really is not fair to say that none of our leaders are working on

> carrying out Srila Prabhupada's vision.

 

yes, you are right, I have been unfair, I apologize, but some times we feel

cheat by some strange situations that happened and where we feel uncare by

our zone authorities.

 

The only thing that will be successful is

> if we make Srila Prabhupada's vision -- which is specifically adapted for

> our present age -- the central model.

 

yes, I hope that this can be start as soon as possible.

>

> I hope that now that we have at least one book which is composed entirely

> of Srila Prabhupada's instructions on varnasrama and farm community

> development, this will help create a common understanding of what he

> wanted varnsrama to be for us. That common vision should help things

> develop with somewhat more smoothly.

 

Again I have to thank you very much for your encouraging words.

 

your humble servant & spiritual niece, Sridhari devi dasi

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna dasi wrote:

 

> Otherwise

> our current gurus will continue to be too overloaded to invest much time

> and energy in providing meaningful varna counseling to their disciples.

> Obviously, this will be a disaster if a guru just waves his hand and

> pronounces, "You are a sudra; you are a vaisya; you are a brahmana" and so

> on. Practically speaking, that type of designation of varna cannot work.

> It will require more time and sensitivity.

 

Here are two nice quotes which shed more light on the varna designation

process:

 

"By psychology, by horoscope, by birth-right, the children of the

Gita-Nagari community shall be divided into different destined works. It

is, however, possible to make a change of this general rule under special

cases. The educational institution at Gita Nagari will, as a matter of

fact, try to create a greater number of students having the necessary

qualifications of a brahmana by developing such culture in him, because in

the Kali-age there is a big scarcity of the brahmana class. Therefore,

Gita Nagari, by its cultural propaganda and otherwise, can create any

number of brahmanas provided the candidates are available."

 

(Srila Prabhupada in "Interpretations of the Bhagavad-gita", quoted in

ISKCON farm newsletter, vol.2, no.1)

 

 

"Unless a child is trained according to his tendency, there is no

possibility of his developing his particular spirit. It was the duty of

the spiritual master or teacher to observe the psychological movement of a

particular boy and thus train him in a particular occupational duty."

(SB 4.8.36)

 

 

Here Prabhupada clearly says that it was the duty of the guru or the teacher

to "observe the psychological movement of a particular boy". If the guru has

3000 disciples and is constantly travelling all over the world he may not be

in a position to do this. In this case, the teacher(s)of the boy should

advise the parents which occupation is most suitable for him. However if

both guru and teacher are unable or unwilling to do that, I guess the

parents should do it themselves. If they like, they can consult an expert

astrologer and they can discuss the matter with experienced well-wishers.

But the main point is that every single child has to be trained in a

particular occupational duty.

 

ys Anantarupa das

[Guest guest]

Sita Devi Dasi wrote:

 

> [Text 2838516 from COM]

>

> At 4:42 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

> >[Text 2838450 from COM]

> >

> >> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> >> her husband?

> >>

> > Yes, definitely. We are all servants of Krishna and that is our original

> >position. He told us that we are all spirit souls, or do you mean that only

> >men have a soul within their body? Then we can join Christians who say that

> >animals don't have a soul, just that they can eat them.

>

> What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

> (including GBC)?!

>

> Ys, Sdd

 

So, all ISKCON management is material.

[Guest guest]

>

> > What does being a spirit soul have to do with any material occupations

> > (including GBC)?!

> >

> > Ys, Sdd

>

>So, all ISKCON management is material.

 

Good point. We're discussing *devotional service* here.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/99 12:40:59 AM Central Standard Time,

btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

 

<< Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

her husband?

 

ys. JMd

>>

 

Yes. In the early 70's Prabhupada said that women didn't have to get married

if they didn't want to. Also, I discovered that a brahmacarini asrama is not

a new creation but actually existed in ancient times.

 

I think the point is that one standard may be for the general populace in a

"vedic" social system and another standard for the devotees who are preachers

and educators. Otherwise, if women are not meant to be trained

brahminically, why did Prabhupada give them brahminical initiation, have them

attend classes, encourage them to preach, to deity worship, etc.?

 

Ys, Mahatma dasa

[Guest guest]

At 12:50 AM -0500 12/9/99, COM: Mahatma (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

 

><< Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

> ys. JMd

 

>Yes. In the early 70's Prabhupada said that women didn't have to get married

>if they didn't want to. Also, I discovered that a brahmacarini asrama is not

>a new creation but actually existed in ancient times.

 

How many brahmacarinis from the 70's remained brahmacarini? Why did

Prabhupada call it "artificial? Actually this question is answered in

section 3.6.1 (Brahmacarini is artificial) of the paper entitled

"Vaisnavism and Social Responsibility" which can be found at

http://www.ghqd.org in both downloadable zip and on-line formats.

 

If you will recall, the above question was stated in the context of

designating a woman's *varna*. Whenever Prabhupada discussed the social

position of women ie. varna, he did so by saying things like:

 

"Woman can become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to

husband. And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class.

Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is

first-class, the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband.

 

Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class

husband.

 

Prabhupada: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if

the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class." July 5, 1975 RC

with Mr. & Mrs. Wax of Playboy Magazine)

 

and:

 

"Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?

Prabhupada: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to

man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is

second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the

woman is third-class. In this... Because woman is meant for assisting man,

so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband." (July 9,

1975 TV Interview)

 

"Brahmananda: She's asking where does woman fit into this structure?

Prabhupada: Now, woman is supposed to be assistant of man. If woman is

faithful wife of the first-class man, then she also becomes first-class. If

she is assistant of the second-class man then he is also second-class. If

she is assistant of the third-class man, then she is also third-class.

Because she is assistant, so, according to her husband, or protector, she

becomes first, second, third, fourth." (July 9, 1975 Press Conference)

 

So when Hare Krsna Dasi states:

 

"Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual master should designate

the varna of a disciple"

 

we can add that Prabhupada designates a woman's varna to be that of her

husband.

 

>I think the point is that one standard may be for the general populace in a

>"vedic" social system and another standard for the devotees who are preachers

>and educators. Otherwise, if women are not meant to be trained

>brahminically, why did Prabhupada give them brahminical initiation, have them

>attend classes, encourage them to preach, to deity worship, etc.?

 

Every human being is supposed to come to the brahminical platform. This is

further discussed in sections 1.2 (Vedic Culture), 1.5.2 (Stricter Policies

for Sannyasa and Brahminical Initiation), and 3.5.2 (Brahmana on Spiritual

Platform Only) of the VSR paper.

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 12/7/99 12:40:59 AM Central Standard Time,

> btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net writes:

>

> << Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant

> of her husband?

>

> ys. JMd

> >>

>

> Yes. In the early 70's Prabhupada said that women didn't have to get

> married if they didn't want to. Also, I discovered that a brahmacarini

> asrama is not a new creation but actually existed in ancient times.

 

Mahatma Prabhu... I think if you did a little research into this subject on

an SP Vedabase Folio, you might reconsider such an opinion. SP's

instruction above sounds like a "time & circumstance" instruction, rather

than a prinicple of vedic dharma & culture; which seems to be the opposite.

 

> I think the point is that one standard may be for the general populace in

> a "vedic" social system and another standard for the devotees who are

> preachers and educators. Otherwise, if women are not meant to be trained

> brahminically, why did Prabhupada give them brahminical initiation, have

> them attend classes, encourage them to preach, to deity worship, etc.?

>

> Ys, Mahatma dasa

 

He encouraged them to do Deity worship in the home... the distinction was

clearly made by him here in India, where he DID NOT institute women pujaris

in the major temples; precisely because it is disallowed in vedic

literatures. It just isn't done at ANY major ancient temple. Puri,

Tirupati, Dwaraka, Badrinath, etc., etc., etc.

 

"Time & circumstance" preaching in the west meant engaging all in these

activities. "Something is better than nothing" is invoked in an emergancy

situation. But as things progress towards the standards mentioned in

Haribhaktivilas and other vedic literature and vedic supplimentary

literature, men & women's roles are clearly defined... and women are

encouraged to serve their husbands and look after the household, while the

man engages in his duties according to varnashrama dharma.

 

dasanudas,

 

Basu Ghosh Das

[Guest guest]

[Text 2843828 from COM]

 

At 12:50 AM -0500 12/9/99, COM: Mahatma (das) ACBSP (Vrindavan - IN) wrote:

 

><< Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

> her husband?

>

> ys. JMd

 

>Yes. In the early 70's Prabhupada said that women didn't have to get married

>if they didn't want to. Also, I discovered that a brahmacarini asrama is not

>a new creation but actually existed in ancient times.

 

Ameyatma Prabhu responds:

 

First of all, in my own study on the topic I found mostly that SP only

wanted his female disciples to get married. But, he would not force. He

wrote one mataji asking her to concider marriage, but did tell her if she

did not want to she did not have to. In other words, he wanted them to

marry, and he preached that they 'should', but,, yes, if they didn't want to

he didn't force it. At least that was my impression.

 

And in SP's own words, both in his first letters asking to start it, and in

1977, SP said that the brahmacarini ashram was artificial. So, where does

Mahatma get his discoveries from? And, what sort of brahmacarini ashram is

he speaking about? There were widows ashrams, and mother Deva Huti told me

that SP instructed her, regarding opening such a widows ashram, is that the

seperated or widowed mothers with daughters would live in that ashram to

train their daughters how to become submissive wives of their future

husbands. But, where is any shastric evidence that young girls, 5 and up,

the father would hand them over to a guru to go live in his ashram to be

trained as celebant student? Or even an ashram where unwed teenage girls

go to learn from a guru in such an ashram?

 

My understanding is that SP started it as a stop-gap measure for the current

situations. He originally only wanted to have male students. But, young

girls also came to his lectures and also wanted to stay in his ashram. What

to do? They were living on their own, not with parents - but they wanted

to become devotees, Vaishnavis. So, what to be done? When he went to hold

the first initiations, wasn't he only going to initiate the men? Wasn't it

the women who came to him and pleaded that they too wanted to be initiated?

[i am writing only from memory as I am pressed on time to look up any

referrences right now]. SP considered, if he did not take them in, there

was no one else, so he did so. Also, even though the guru may tell his

brahmacaris never to marry, guru also knows that the majority of men will

marry. So, who will his disciples marry? Non-devotee women? This was

America and outside of those who came to SP, there were no other Vaishnavis.

If he didn't take in these girls and train them, who else would and who else

would his male disciples marry when they were ready for marriage?

 

> I think the point is that one standard may be for the general populace in

a

> "vedic" social system and another standard for the devotees who are

> preachers

> and educators.

 

Vedic scripture, upon which Vedic culture is based, is for all mankind.

Where did SP say that the instructions of Narad Muni to Maharaj Yudisthira

regarding the qualities of a chaste woman and wife only apply to

non-devotees? Where did SP say that his instructions regarding how 'we' are

to train our daughters in the Dallas gurukula in 2 things, how to become

first-class cook and how to submissively serve their husbands somehow not

apply to our daughters but to the non-preachers?

 

> Otherwise, if women are not meant to be trained

> brahminically, why did Prabhupada give them brahminical initiation, have

> them

> attend classes, encourage them to preach, to deity worship, etc.?

>

> Ys, Mahatma dasa

 

Then, what was the meaning of the statement (no time to look up now, so

paraphrasing), when he spoke that his female disciples are not agitated for

'equal rights' because they are satisfied, being Krsna Conscious. He said

that they don't ask him to travel and preach like he does. They are

satisfied cooking and cleaning.... I guess SP must have been in maya

when he said that.

 

Here is where I do agree that SP did make room for 2 standards. The women

who were joining off the streets, who had modern schooling and modern ideas,

he did try to teach them to become submissive wives, and did want to see

they were all married. But, he also saw that some were agitated by their

Western training, so he engaged them as well.

 

Yes, Deity worship in the temples in India is only by men, but at home, it

is the duty of the husband to see that the wife is always engaged in

religious activities. At home the wife can do more direct pujari service.

So, in America, why not train them in this way. But, SP did not allow such

loose standards in the temples in India. Since enough people there

understood the higher standards, SP wanted that in India we also follow

those higher standards. In the West he made some consideration.

 

But, where he made a second and totally different standard was in what he

taught how we must train our daughters. In my study on this all I found

was that he instructed us to teach them the more strict and proper Vedic

culture. This is where he said, in regards to building a girls' ashram in

Vrndaban, that such brahmacarini ashrams are artificial. It was a mistake

to have school for girls, for girls (and he was speaking of our daughters)

there should be no school. Girls should remain at home, trained by the

mother, how to cook, how to sew, clean, take care of babies, serve their

husbands. They don't need big big education for this.

 

I have not found one referrence where SP instructed that our daughters must

be trained to become like men. To become social leaders, or what ever.

But, many times he stated they are to be taught to become first-class cooks,

how to clean, how to sew, and how to submissively serve their husbands.

And I say that this is also what he wanted for his direct disciples who

joined older in life as well, but due to the extra baggage they carried in

with them, due to their Western upbringing, some concessions had to be made.

But, as he spoke in one lecture, and asked his lady disciples not to get

angry with him, but he said that shastra is actually only for the men.

Those who have large enough brain capacity to understand. Those with

smaller intelligence, the women, they must get married and serve their

husbands, but shastra and philosophical understanding, that is for the men.

You will not find, HE said (not me, SP said), in all of human history, any

big scientist, big philosopher, etc., who was a woman. No, he said, you will

not find. All are men.

 

So, yes, Plato, Soccratees, Pythagorus, Kant, Narad Muni, Chanakya,

Einstien, Edison, Ben Franklin, Issac Newton, De Vinci, SP, to name a few

off the top of my head, they are all men. What great female thinkers are

there in hisotry (outside of very unique and special Vaishnavis, such as

Sarasvati)? So, he told his own lady disciples that actually shastra and

philosophy is mostly only for the men.

 

So, yes, I have found really only one standard that he preached, the Vedic

standard. And for our children, our own daughters, that he instructed -

train them to become submissive wives - no school, school for girls is a

mistake - but, for these older women who were joining, for those he started

the brahmacarini ashrams, for those mataji's he made some concessions - if

they could not fully accept and follow the more strict Vedic standards.

 

ys ameyatma

[Guest guest]

>

> So when Hare Krsna Dasi states:

>

> "Srila Prabhupada also advised that the spiritual master should designate

> the varna of a disciple"

>

> we can add that Prabhupada designates a woman's varna to be that of her

> husband.

>

Nice that you add that, but are you sure that you understood properly what

Prabhupada ment? Do you know what is varna? Do you know what is a material

body? Do you know what is the difference between a male material body and a

female material body? Do you know what is a soul? Do you know how this

things relate to each other?

Krishna is The One who creates and designates things. I mean, it is

Krishnas nature that we are talking about.

In all those quotes that you mentioned Prabhupada didn't even once use the

word varna. Do you have any quote which clearly confirms your conclusion? I

deffinitely have some that don't, but I don't want to use them. Since, we

are also supposed to understand the philosophy and not just quote like

parrots.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) wrote:

> Do you know what is varna?

 

I have a harder one: how does Vedic literature define "species"?

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

> And for our children, our own daughters, that he instructed -

> train them to become submissive wives - no school, school for girls is a

> mistake -

 

So those mujahedin in Afghanistan must be prety doing the right thing by

stoping the girls to enter the schools and by sending the woman teachers

home...

 

All glories to your "vedic" culture...

[Guest guest]

On 09 Dec 1999, Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote:

 

 

>

> ><< Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant

of her husband?

> >

> > ys. JMd

>

 

 

I'm probably wrong in saying this, but I do believe he might have mentioned

they were eternal servants of Krsna. I can't remember the exact quote -- but

I'm sure he said it!

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

> You will not find, HE said (not me, SP said), in all of human history, any

> big scientist, big philosopher, etc., who was a woman. No, he said, you

> will not find. All are men.

 

Madeline Albright, oops but she is just foreign minister or so..

"Behind every great man is a great woman" autor unknown

[Guest guest]

On 10 Dec 1999, Harsi das wrote:

 

> Madeline Albright, oops but she is just foreign minister or so..

> "Behind every great man is a great woman" autor unknown

 

"Behind every great man is a woman telling him he's wrong!" (author: some

comedian whose name I no longer remember)

[Guest guest]

>

> > Madeline Albright, oops but she is just foreign minister or so.. "Behind

> > every great man is a great woman" autor unknown

>

> "Behind every great man is a woman telling him he's wrong!" (author: some

> comedian whose name I no longer remember)

 

What would be Krsna without Radharani, his better half...