What is varna and how does it relate to us?

[Guest guest]

> > Prabhupada gave an incontrovertible "No!" to women attending VA College.

> > Why? Because women are like sudras and are never to be trained as

> > external managers. They should simply assist their husbands:

> >

> > 1. They are not fit for such education and/or

> > 2. They are reluctant to receive such education

> >

 

OKAY, HERE WE GO! SINCE YOU DONT KNOW IT, I WILL EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.

 

1. What is varna?

Varna is the quality of one's work (activities). Varna is a combination

of guna and karma. Karma is activity and guna is quality. All the activities

in material world are carried out by the material nature. There are three

modes of material nature: goodness, passion and ignorance. There are

activities in the mode of goodness (brahminical), activities in the mode of

passion (ksatriya), activities in the mix modes of passion and ignorance

(vaisya) and activities in the mode of ignorance (sudra).

"The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself

the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes

of material nature." BG 3.27

"Four divisions of the social system are there according to quality and

work. That is very natural in this world. Everyone is accepted on quality

and work." Mayapur, march 16, 1976

"Similarly, according to the quality of the work there must be a class of

less intelligent men. They cannot independently work. That is sudra."

"That is one of the items of KCM, to reastablish the institution of

varna and asrama. Not by birth, but by qualification."

 

2. What is a material body?

Material body is a mashine made of material energy. Gross body (earth,

water, fire, air and ether) plus subtle body (mind, intelligence and false

ego). Material nature is constituted of the three modes. All material bodies

are under the influence of the modes and made according to different

combinations of modes.

 

3. What is the difference between a male material body and a female

material body?

There is no difference between male and female bodies. Both are made of

gross and subtle body and under the influence of the modes of material

nature. What is very different is male and female natures.

 

4. What is a soul?

Soul is the spiritual energy (marginal), part and parcel of Krishna.

The nature of soul is love.

 

5. How do the above thingss relate to each other?

 

Spirit soul encaged within material body, thinks himself to be the doer of

activities, while one who realy knows, knows that all activities are carried

out by nature. There are three modes of nature and all activities are

colored by those modes. Color of certain activity defines varna. Both, the

souls in male bodies and the souls in female bodies, think themselves to be

the doer of activities. The truth is that soul is just desiring and the

activities are carried out by the modes of material nature under the

superintendence of the Supersoul.

Both male and female bodies performe activites. Both male and female

bodies act under the influence of modes of nature. The modes are coloring

the activities of the bodies, and that colored activity is varna.

Both men and women have varna. Therefore it is adviced that one gets

married with a person of the same varna. Sometimes there is a mixture of

varnas, like in the pratiloma and anuloma marriages. Pratiloma marriage is a

marriage between woman of higher varna and man of lower varna. Anuloma

marriage is a marriage between a man of higher varna and woman of lower

varna. Mixt marriages are not welcomed, but anuloma is accepted, while

pratiloma is considered degraded.

 

So, in the guisse of varnasrama, you are actually promoting the caste

system. Varnasrama is Krishnas system. The caste system is made by humans

who want to exploit others. In the caste system people are classified

according to their birth. In your system people are classified according to

marriage. But in Krishnas system people are classified according to quality

of their work, guna and karma.

 

In Kali-yuga everybody is born like sudra, both men and women. But one can

elevate oneself to a higher position, by cultivating the mode of goodness

and performing activities of higher varnas.

 

Here comes the HOT one:

 

"As long as one is very much attached to material sense gratification, the

worship of the demigods or the worship of one's husband is recomended."

SB. 6.18.35

 

Jay, prabhus! Not just that you are propagating the caste system, but

looks like that you would like to have kind of women very much attached to

sense gratification.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> 3. What is the difference between a male material body and a female

>material body?

> There is no difference between male and female bodies.

 

Could you show me where Prabhupada confirms that there is no difference. As

far as my experience goes, male and female bodies are very different.

 

> Both male and female bodies performe activites.

 

Their prescribed duties, or occupational duties are described in sastra and

by Srila Prabhupada to be different.

 

>Both male and female

>bodies act under the influence of modes of nature. The modes are coloring

>the activities of the bodies, and that colored activity is varna.

> Both men and women have varna.

 

Varna is based on one's quality and work (guna and karma). As previously

noted, a girl becomes brahmana not by being born in a brahmana family or

simply by having the guna similar to a brahmana, but by marrying a husband

who is a brahmana. If a chaste woman has a different guna from her husband,

she adapts herself to his qualities and helps him in his work. As

Prabhupada said, what is the use of making a woman a brahmana if she

marries someone who is not a brahmana? In the example of Devahuti and

Kardama Muni, Devahuti became a brahmani by marrying Kardama but she had

not been previously accustomed to his brahminical lifestyle. Cyavana's wife

Sukanya adapted to the temperament of her husband who was much older than

her, Gandhari put on a blindfold so that she would not think herself

greater than her husband, Kunti followed her sons and Sita followed Rama to

the forest instead of staying behind in a palace...why? Why didn't they

serve the Lord in a way and place they felt most comfortable?

 

>Therefore it is adviced that one gets

>married with a person of the same varna. Sometimes there is a mixture of

>varnas, like in the pratiloma and anuloma marriages. Pratiloma marriage is a

>marriage between woman of higher varna and man of lower varna. Anuloma

>marriage is a marriage between a man of higher varna and woman of lower

>varna. Mixt marriages are not welcomed, but anuloma is accepted, while

>pratiloma is considered degraded.

 

This type of varna refers to guna or qualities. It does not mean

occupation. Also, Prabhupada writes that these considerations don't really

matter if both the boy and girl are devotees:

 

"Vedic astrology reveals whether one has been born in the vipra-varna,

ksatriya-varna, vaisya-varna or sudra-varna, according to the three

qualities of material nature. This must be examined because a marriage

between a boy of the vipra-varna and a girl of the sudra-varna is

incompatible; married life would be miserable for both husband and wife.

Consequently a boy should marry a girl of the same category. Of course,

this is trai-gunya, a material calculation according to the Vedas, but if

the boy and girl are devotees there need be no such considerations. A

devotee is transcendental, and therefore in a marriage between devotees,

the boy and girl form a very happy combination." (SB Purport 6.2.26)

 

> In Kali-yuga everybody is born like sudra, both men and women. But one can

>elevate oneself to a higher position, by cultivating the mode of goodness

>and performing activities of higher varnas.

 

Can you provide sastric support showing how a woman should perform the work

of a brahmana or ksatriya independently, even if her husband is not

designated as such by his varna.

 

> Here comes the HOT one:

>

> "As long as one is very much attached to material sense gratification, the

>worship of the demigods or the worship of one's husband is recomended."

>SB. 6.18.35

 

Why not quote more relevant parts of that section, which is 6.18.34 btw,

not 35--

 

"One who is not in direct touch with the Supreme Lord and cannot conceive

of the exalted position of the Lord is sometimes advised to worship the

demigods as various parts of the Lord. If women, who are usually very much

attached to their husbands, worship their husbands as representatives of

Väsudeva, the women benefit, just as Ajämila benefited by calling for

Näräyaëa, his son. Ajämila was concerned with his son, but because of his

attachment to the name of Näräyaëa, he attained salvation simply by

chanting that name. In India a husband is still called pati-guru, the

husband spiritual master. If husband and wife are attached to one another

for advancement in Krsna consciousness, their relationship of cooperation

is very effective for such advancement. Although the names of Indra and

Agni are sometimes uttered in the Vedic mantras (indräya svähä, agnaye

svähä), the Vedic sacrifices are actually performed for the satisfaction of

Lord Visnu. As long as one is very much attached to material sense

gratification, the worship of the demigods or the worship of one's husband

is recommended."

 

Prabhupada wrote to his disciples that they SHOULD serve their devotee

husbands as representatives of the Supreme Lord Krsna:

 

"Another item is, you are married wife, so in that position you should

serve your husband nicely always, being attentive to his needs, and in this

way, because he is always absorbed in serving Krishna, by serving your

husband you will also get Krishna, through him. He is your spiritual

master, but he must be responsible for giving you all spiritual help,

teaching you as he advances his own knowledge and realization. That is the

vedic system: The wife becomes a devotee of her husband, the husband

becomes a devotee of Krishna; the wife serves her husband faithfully, the

husband protects his wife by giving her spiritual guidance. So you should

simply do whatever your husband instructs you to do, however he may require

your assistance. Of course, the nature of woman is to be attached to her

husband and family, so our system is to minimize this attachment by making

the ultimate goal of our activity the pleasure of Krishna. Just try to

please Krishna always, and no material circumstances will be able to cause

you any discomfort." (Letter to: Saucarya, 23 October, 1972 72-10-23)

 

Is Prabhupada's instruction encouraging women to be attached to sense

gratification??

 

Ys, Sdd

[Guest guest]

> > 3. What is the difference between a male material body and a female

> >material body?

> > There is no difference between male and female bodies.

>

> Could you show me where Prabhupada confirms that there is no difference.

> As far as my experience goes, male and female bodies are very different.

I already explained. Both bodies are made of gross material elements and

the subtle body. What is different is gender, male and female nature.

Or, do I have to quote for this also? I mean, this is really the basic

philosophy.

>

> > Both male and female bodies performe activites.

>

> Their prescribed duties, or occupational duties are described in sastra

> and by Srila Prabhupada to be different.

>

"As stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.13), the four divisions of human society

were created by the Supreme Lord according to the three modes of material

nature and the work ascribed to them." SB. 7.11

 

You see, Prabhupad and Krishna didn't ascribe the work to you or your

husband, they ascribed the work to the three modes of material nature. You

are not the doer. The work is carried out by your body according to the

modess of nature of your body, and not your husbands body. The work

performed by your husbands body has nothing to do with the work performed by

your body. They are definitely different. Husbands body is acting according

to the modes his body is under, and your body is acting according to its own

modes.

 

> >Both male and female

> >bodies act under the influence of modes of nature. The modes are coloring

> >the activities of the bodies, and that colored activity is varna.

> > Both men and women have varna.

>

> Varna is based on one's quality and work (guna and karma).

 

Varna is not based on one's quality and work. Varna IS quality of one's

work. So if one is working in the mode of goodness we say that he is

performing brahminical activities. Brahminical is the quality of his action,

and according to the quality of that action he is classified as brahmana.

Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra are different categories of the same

varna (quality of work). When the quality of activity is goodness, we are

talking about brahmana varna, when the quality of activity is passion, we

are talking about ksatriya varna, when the quality of activity is mixed

passion and ignorance, we are talking about vaisya varna and when the

quality of activity is ignorance, we are talking about sudra varna.

 

> As previously

> noted, a girl becomes brahmana not by being born in a brahmana family or

> simply by having the guna similar to a brahmana, but by marrying a husband

> who is a brahmana. If a chaste woman has a different guna from her

> husband, she adapts herself to his qualities and helps him in his work. As

> Prabhupada said, what is the use of making a woman a brahmana if she

> marries someone who is not a brahmana? In the example of Devahuti and

> Kardama Muni, Devahuti became a brahmani by marrying Kardama but she had

> not been previously accustomed to his brahminical lifestyle. Cyavana's

> wife Sukanya adapted to the temperament of her husband who was much older

> than her, Gandhari put on a blindfold so that she would not think herself

> greater than her husband, Kunti followed her sons and Sita followed Rama

> to the forest instead of staying behind in a palace...why? Why didn't they

> serve the Lord in a way and place they felt most comfortable?

>

 

You know, I am really amused to see how first you say that varna is based

on one's quality and work and then you proceed to contradict yourself

completely by saying that womens varna is based on husbands varna. Can't you

please make up your mind? If your philosophy is that varna is based on one's

quality and work then stick to that. In the case of woman it would be

quality of woman's work that the varna is based on. But you see, varna is

not based on quality, varna IS quality.

 

> >Therefore it is adviced that one gets

> >married with a person of the same varna. Sometimes there is a mixture of

> >varnas, like in the pratiloma and anuloma marriages. Pratiloma marriage

> >is a marriage between woman of higher varna and man of lower varna.

> >Anuloma marriage is a marriage between a man of higher varna and woman of

> >lower varna. Mixt marriages are not welcomed, but anuloma is accepted,

> >while pratiloma is considered degraded.

>

> This type of varna refers to guna or qualities.

Sita, what are you talking about here? Varna is certain thing and is

always that. It doesn't refer once to one thing and then when we don't like

it we turn it into something else.

 

>It does not mean occupation.

You know, varna is anyway not an ocupation. Varna is nature of activity.

According to the nature of our work we are clasified.

You see, women like a class have some kind of occupational activities and

this activities are done by women of all varnas. Men as a class have certain

occupational activities and those activities are done by the men of all

varnas. We are not discussing here occupational activities of men and women,

we are disscusing varna.

 

>Also, Prabhupada writes that these considerations don't really

> matter if both the boy and girl are devotees:

 

I see, now at once, we are becoming transcendental. If we can't escape

from the truth, then we just transcend it. So, do the boy and the girl

constantly feel love of God and are bathing in the ocean of exstasy? If they

don't, then the activities their bodies perform have certain nature, which

is called material varna.

 

> Can you provide sastric support showing how a woman should perform the

> work of a brahmana or ksatriya independently, even if her husband is not

> designated as such by his varna.

 

You know, both woman and man perform their work independently, even when

they get married. They don't become one by becoming married. That is why is

very important to make proper matches. A girl and a boy must be very

compatible in order that marriage works. If they would be becoming one, like

according to your philosophy, there would be no need of all those

astrological calculations, varna consideration, level of spiritual

advancement consideration, cultural background consideration. If they are

anyway becoming one by the marriage ceremony, and a girl is automaticaly

developing same qualities as her husband, just by tiding the knot, then why

would people spend all that time trying to find a proper match?

 

"Lord Balarama then considered the history of Romaharsana: he was born in a

suta family, or a mixed family, born of a brahmana woman and a ksatriya man.

Therefore although Romaharsana considered Balarama a ksatriya, he should not

have remained sitting on a higher seat; according to his position by birth

he should not even have accepted the higher sitting position, because many

learned brahmanas and sages were present. ... Lord Balarama did not like the

audacity of Romaharsana and, becoming very angry at him, declared from His

seat, “This man, Romaharsana, is so impudent that he has accepted a higher

seat than that of all the respectable brahmanas present here, although he

was born in a degraded pratiloma family.” KB. ch 78

 

You see, Lord Balarama doesn't think that Romaharsanas wife became a

ksatriya just by marrying a ksatriya. That was a pratiloma marriage, and

this kind of marriage when women is from higher varna is considered

degraded.

 

"Devayani wished to marry him, but at first he refused to accept her

because of her being a daughter of a brahmana. According to sastras, a

brahmana could marry the daughter of a ksatriya but a ksatriya could not

marry the daughter of a brahmana. They were very much cautious about

varna-sankara population in the world. Sukracarya amended this law of

forbidden marriage and induced Emperor Yayati to accept Devayani."

SB 1.12.24

 

Marriage between a girl of higher varna and a men of lower varna is even

forbiden. Sukracarya amended the law in order to please his daughter.

Children coming from the pratiloma marriages are considered varna-sankara.

 

"Pratiloma indicates the combination of a superior woman with an inferior

man. For example, the vaidehaka community consists of those born of a sudra

father and brahmana mother, whereas the sutas are those born from a ksatriya

father and a brahmana mother or from a sudra father and ksatriya mother.

Anuloma indicates those born from a superior father and inferior mother. The

murdhavasikta are those born of a brahmana father and ksatriya mother.

Ambanahas are those born from a brahmana father and vaisya mother, and they

often become medical men. Karana indicates those born of a vaisya father and

sudra mother or of a ksatriya father and vaisya mother. That such mixing of

castes is not very much appreciated in the Vedic culture is demonstrated in

the first chapter of Bhagavad-gita. Arjuna was very worried that the death

of so many ksatriyas on the battlefield would lead to the mixing of superior

women with inferior men, and on those grounds he objected to fighting."

SB.11.20.2

If you still keep your stand that women varna is becoming the same as

husbands varna after the marriage, then I am really amezed.

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

Dear Readers of this "tree",

 

Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

I humbly request you all to read the Purport of Srila Prabhupada in

Bhagavad-gita As It Is for Chapter 16 Text 22, where SP describes the

importance of varnasrama and the division of duties amongst the various

members of the social orders.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Hope this meets you well.

 

dasanudas,

 

Basu Ghosh Das