The truth counts...

[Guest guest]

Sraddha dd. wrote:

 

> The amount of intelligence doesn't depend on size of the brain or gender.

> The amount of intelligence depends on guna (varna).

 

And also on ones karma. I mean material intelligence. But spiritual

intelligence not necesarily, that can be developed in my opinion also by

applying and following the teachings of the Lord and the spiritual master in

ones life, like you said:

 

Here we have definition of spiritual inteligence:

 

"To solve such dilemmas, Srila Rupa Gosvami has given a very clear

conception of intelligence. He says:

Visayan, material affairs, should be accepted without attachment, and

everything should be dovetailed with the service of the Lord. That is real

intelligence (manina). Becoming a family man or king in the material world

is not harmful if one accepts everything for Krishnas service." SB. 5.1.12

[Guest guest]

At 12:50 AM +0100 12/12/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote:

>[Text 2849993 from COM]

 

> Here we have definition of spiritual inteligence:

>

> "To solve such dilemmas, Srila Rupa Gosvami has given a very clear

>conception of intelligence. He says:

> Visayan, material affairs, should be accepted without attachment, and

>everything should be dovetailed with the service of the Lord. That is real

>intelligence (manina). Becoming a family man or king in the material world

>is not harmful if one accepts everything for Krishnas service." SB. 5.1.12

 

Intelligence, then, means to accept our prescribed duties (material affair)

without attachment (or aversion) and "everything should be dovetailed with

the service of the Lord." Exactly our point. A man's prescribed duties are

divided according to the four occupational divisions, a woman's prescribed

duty is to serve her husband. Narada Muni explains these prescribed duties

of VAD to Yudhistira Maharaja in SB 7.11.

 

This is also consistent with Prabhupada's policy of "NO women in VA

Colleges" and statements such as the following:

 

Sri Sri Rukmini Dvaraka-natha Deity Installation

 

Los Angeles, July 16, 1969

 

Therefore, according to Vedic system, a boy born in a brahmana family, he

is allowed all the samskaras, reformatory, purificatory process, but the

girl is not. Why? Now, because a girl has to follow her husband. So if her

husband is brahmana, automatically she becomes brahmana. There is no need

of separate reformation. And by chance she may be married with a person who

is not a brahmana, then what is the use of making her a brahmana? That is

the general method. So therefore the, even born in a brahmana family, a

woman is taken as woman, not as brahmana. But Krsna says, "Never mind. Even

if she is woman, even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other, I

mean to say, family born in, never mind." Mam hi partha vyapasritya, if

anyone is bona fidely made Krsna conscious, te 'pi yanti param gatim, so

his way is open to the path of Vaikuntha, param gatim. Kim punar brahmanah

punya

 

It is interesting to note that Prabhupada corrects himself after

inadvertently saying "even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other"

by reestablishing the principle tat she can never be a brahmana, vaisya,

ksatriya but "I mean to say, family born in." This also shows how easily

one may misunderstand the point that although a woman may be a brahmani

(born in a brahmana family) she is never a brahmana by occupation.

 

A woman born in a family of brahmanas in never a brahmana because she is

never allowed the samskara that transforms a potential brahmana boy into a

brahmana. Ksatriyas and vaisyas also receive this reformation. Women, no

matter which family they are born into, never receive such reformation. The

fact that Prabhupaa said "No" to women attending VA College also indicates

that, in the future, women would not be given brahminical initiation. Why?

Because only those trained as brahmanas in the VA Colleges would be given

that distinction. Furthermore, aside from all the women, not every man

would be given 2nd initiation. Why? Because Prabhupada wanted to start

introducing the principles of VAD:

 

Letter to: Sudama Rome 26 May, 1974

 

"You were present in Hawaii when I was there and was particularly stressing

that the presidents must be very careful on recommending gayatri

initiation. After all, we are criticizing false cast brahmanas, if we

ourselves are bogus brahmanas then our position is very bad. Now that we

are more and more trying to implement the varnasrama divisions of society,

we should not think that everyone has to become a brahmana. For example you

are developing a farm there; so those who work the farm do not necessarily

have to be a brahmana if they are not inclined to the brahminical

standards. In this way, be careful about awarding the second initiation."

 

But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can

still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona

fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna

conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without

attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord.

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> A man's

> prescribed duties are divided according to the four occupational

> divisions, a woman's prescribed duty is to serve her husband.

 

 

Th three modes of material nature determine the quality of work for women as

well as men. The modes act on ALL living entities including women. While I

agree that the varnas are typically male designations a women has three

positions of occupation not just one; she is daughter, wife or mother and

sometimes she is two of these or all three of these. The particular modes of

nature by which she is influenced will determine her quality of work within

these occupational duties.

 

All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically

sudras or lower. Some women are influenced by the mode of goodness and take

to brahminical activities in life and reflect those qualities as daughters,

wives and mothers. Most women are influenced by the lower modes and their

quality of work is effected liekwise.

 

A similar ratio is seen in men. Few are brahmanas; most are of the lower

modes. Prabhupada said there are always more sudras than anything.

 

Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra to

attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as

brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. And often we see many men with those designations

who in fact do not even come close to the REAL goal and yet are proud of the

designation. The designation is NOT the goal.

 

"Even if one is a brahmana and is qualified with all the brahminical

qualifications, he is considered degraded if he is averse to worshiping the

SPG. But if a person is attached to the service of the lord, he becomes

glorified even if he is born in a candala family. ...To substantiate this

there are many quotations from Bhagavatama, Mahabharata, Bharadvaja-samhita

and the Pancaratra, as well as many other scriptures." 4.31.10.

 

We also see many men in certain designations who pose themselves as devotees

by following *strictly* the different rituals but this too is not the goal.

 

"...even if one is not sensuous but is strictly following the disciplines

enjoined in the Vedic scripture, if he is not a devotee, he also cannot

understand Krsna. Even when one poses himself as a devotee of Krsna, but is

not engaged in KC activities, he also cannot understand Krsna." Bg 18.67

 

To understand and serve Krsna is the goal and this is equally available to

males and females of the human race.

 

Further to be a *brahmana* does not always mean the varna designation

associated with the male duty. It can mean one who has attained brahminical

realizations and qualities. Mothers, wives and daughters throughout history

have atained these qualities and their examples are written about in

scripture (Kunti, Gandhari, etc.)

 

Also Prabhupada states the following:

 

"Therefore it is irrefutable that a candala or any fallen or lowborn person

can become a brahmana simply by the method of bona fide initiation." SB

5.1.35.

 

 

He doesn't any *man*; he says any *person*.

 

 

 

> But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can

> still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona

> fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna

> conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without

> attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord.

>

> ys. JMd

 

 

This is very nice and correct. What I wonder is what it is you intend to

accomplish by proving that women are not designated brahmana, ksatriya,

etc.? What then?

 

Maybe we should uplift the status of devotee daughter, devotee wife and

devotee mother more and encourage positive acceptance of these great

positions and occupations. I do not think there are that many women in

ISKCON who would disagree with this. They want the goal not the designation

which is a relative, material designation and many men have made the mistake

of becoming completely attached to the false ego attached to these material

designations and never attain the goal which is easily attained by a sincere

sweeper women in the street because she is a devotee of the Lord.

 

Jd

[Guest guest]

At 6:05 PM -0500 12/12/99, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

>[Text 2851870 from COM]

 

>While I

>agree that the varnas are typically male designations a women has three

>positions of occupation not just one; she is daughter, wife or mother and

>sometimes she is two of these or all three of these.

 

I agree.

 

>All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically

>sudras or lower.

 

Yes they are. As a class, all women are classified as sudras (actually,

papa-yoni). In fact Narada mentions them after the sudras in his

description of VAD categories in SB 7.11

 

>Some women are influenced by the mode of goodness and take

>to brahminical activities in life and reflect those qualities as daughters,

>wives and mothers. Most women are influenced by the lower modes and their

>quality of work is effected liekwise.

 

I agree, Just like some vaisyas are more brahminical than others and some

ksatriyas (like Yudhisthira) are more brahminical than other ksatriyas. But

they are sudras and ksatriyas all the same. So just because one woman is a

little more "brahminical" than another doesn't make her a brahmana. I don't

think I have to post Prabhupada's quote on that again, do I?

 

>Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra to

>attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as

>brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc.

 

Not only do they not need, they did not deserve.

 

>And often we see many men with those designations

>who in fact do not even come close to the REAL goal and yet are proud of the

>designation. The designation is NOT the goal.

 

Absolutely. This is why Lord Caitanya said, kiba vipra kiba nyasi...and

that VAD was external.

 

>To understand and serve Krsna is the goal and this is equally available to

>males and females of the human race.

 

Absolutely.

 

>Further to be a *brahmana* does not always mean the varna designation

>associated with the male duty. It can mean one who has attained brahminical

>realizations and qualities. Mothers, wives and daughters throughout history

>have atained these qualities and their examples are written about in

>scripture (Kunti, Gandhari, etc.)

 

Exactly. Otherwise how can Arjuna, a ksatriya, achieve perfection unless he

too not only achieved brahminical status but superceded it by becoming a

pure vaisnava. And it is for this reason that Prabhupada said women are

brahmanas on spiritual platform only. They are never considered brahmanas

from a social/occupational standpoint. Hence he said "NO!" to women

attending VA Colleges because these colleges were for occupational/social

training. A woman's occupational/social training is received by her mother

at home i.e. how to cook, clean and serve the husband and his family.

Therefore the demands of some women in ISKCON for equal occupational

training and services with the men are at the very least delusions and at

the worst demoniac.

 

>Also Prabhupada states the following:

>

>"Therefore it is irrefutable that a candala or any fallen or lowborn person

>can become a brahmana simply by the method of bona fide initiation." SB

>5.1.35.

>

>

>He doesn't any *man*; he says any *person*.

 

I fully agree.

 

>> But having said that, a woman or any other of the lower social classes can

>> still attain the supreme perfection, "param gatim", if they are "bona

>> fidely made Krsna conscious". And how is one "bona fidely made Krsna

>> conscious'? By acting as Arjuna did: perform our prescribed duty without

>> attachment and aversion and for the pleasure of the Lord.

>>

>> ys. JMd

>

>

>This is very nice and correct. What I wonder is what it is you intend to

>accomplish by proving that women are not designated brahmana, ksatriya,

>etc.? What then?

 

What I and others hope to achieve is simply to clarify the roles we must

play if we are at all serious about establishing VAD within our ISKCON

communities. Unless men and women understand their respective prescribed

duties, all this talk about VAD is a bad joke. Of course, we cannot force

anyone to do anything. But at least in official ISKCON centres and in

discussing the matter philosophically, there must be a consensus that men

and women have different duties: the men according to VA divisions and the

women as assistants to their husbands. Just like Prabhupada says in the

Intro of BG that at least theoretically, when reading BGAII we must accept

Lord Krsna as the SPofG.At least from that point, an understanding of the

Absolute Truth can have a chance to take hold.

 

>Maybe we should uplift the status of devotee daughter, devotee wife and

>devotee mother more and encourage positive acceptance of these great

>positions and occupations. I do not think there are that many women in

>ISKCON who would disagree with this.

 

Again, I agree with you totally. Not only must these womanly duties be

honored, they must be seen as the essential and fundamental components of a

sane human society. Without the nurturing of loving and chaste women and

without the protection of responsible men, we are not even human, what to

speak of vaisnavas.

 

>They want the goal not the designation

>which is a relative, material designation and many men have made the mistake

>of becoming completely attached to the false ego attached to these material

>designations and never attain the goal which is easily attained by a sincere

>sweeper women in the street because she is a devotee of the Lord.

 

I agree with you again. Now the question: "How do the objectives of the IWM

reflect and support this reality?

 

>Jd

 

Thank you for a very sober and intelligent response.

 

ys. JMd