Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 Juvan Mukta das wrote: > >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically > >sudras or lower. > Yes they are. As a class, all women are classified as sudras (actually, > papa-yoni). In fact Narada mentions them after the sudras in his > description of VAD categories in SB 7.11 Yes, he says women are sudras. The scriptures also says that in Kali Yuga, everybody is sudra or less. As sudra is highest in this age, women are the highest, or at least equal to man, or? ys, Harsi das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 > >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically > >sudras or lower. > > Yes they are. I wouldn't say that to Draupadi or Kunti or Mother Sarasvati if I were you. > >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra > >to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as > >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. > > Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. This statement needn't have been made. You reveal a concealed contempt it seems. A bias. A prejudice. You seem to imply that women are not good enough to get a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, etc., as if these designations actually ARE a goal of sorts. If a man has acquired the designation of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra it is due only to his being in the material world and therefore effected by the modes of material nature. This is not really something to be proud of. If we *deserve* these designations it is due only to our material consciousness. The designations are there for us to know what our prescribed duties should be in order to perfect our lives. We have to add qualities to our duties otherwise it is only a material caste system. We leave the designation behind when we leave the material world and simply become designated as eternal servants. Humans who acquire the designation of daughter, wife or mother are similarly effected by the modes of nature and they must also follow the prescribed duties for those positions in order to perfect their lives, but they do NOT have to acquire the designations of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra before they are allowed to leave this material world. They can go back home at the end of this life riding the spirit train of the Holy Name. You can be a perfect brahmana but if you are not a perfect devotee it is useless as far as becoming a lover of the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 At 10:17 AM -0500 12/13/99, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote: >[Text 2854965 from COM] > >> >All women are not born into the lower modes of nature and automatically >> >sudras or lower. >> >> Yes they are. >I wouldn't say that to Draupadi or Kunti or Mother Sarasvati if I were you. The truth applies to everyone. Even Sati admitted that she was socially equal to a sudra. >> >Women do not need a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >> >to attain the same goal which men are *supposed* to be endeavoring for as >> >brahmanas, ksatriyas, etc. >> >> Not only do they not need, they did not deserve. >This statement needn't have been made. You reveal a concealed contempt it >seems. A bias. A prejudice. '"Woman does not deserve independence." Manu has given this. Yes. This is Manu-smrti. So Vedic culture means to follow the regulative principle.'(Room Conversation with Allen Ginsberg May 14, 1969, Columbus, Ohio) I have no contempt for women; I have contempt for those who promote the demoniac "puffed up concept of womanly life." (BG 16.7) I obviously have a bias and prejudice in favor of VAD and Vedic culture as presented to us by Srila Prabhupada. >You seem to imply that women are not good enough >to get a designation like brahmana, ksatriya, etc., as if these designations >actually ARE a goal of sorts. They are an adminstrative goal, not a spiritual goal. They are the goal you have been requesting the GBC to implement for the last 25 years. >If a man has acquired the designation of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >it is due only to his being in the material world and therefore effected by >the modes of material nature. This is not really something to be proud of. >If we *deserve* these designations it is due only to our material >consciousness. Exactly. There is nothing to be proud of, yet a society devoid of these mundane principles isn't even human. >The designations are there for us to know what our prescribed duties should >be in order to perfect our lives. We have to add qualities to our duties >otherwise it is only a material caste system. We leave the designation >behind when we leave the material world and simply become designated as >eternal servants. Yes. Just like Arjuna was a kstariya but his fighting has the quality of pure unalloyed devotion. That is wanted. >Humans who acquire the designation of daughter, wife or mother are similarly >effected by the modes of nature and they must also follow the prescribed >duties for those positions in order to perfect their lives, but they do NOT >have to acquire the designations of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra >before they are allowed to leave this material world. They can go back home >at the end of this life riding the spirit train of the Holy Name. >You can be a perfect brahmana but if you are not a perfect devotee it is >useless as far as becoming a lover of the Lord. That is precisly the point. I agree with you 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 1999 Report Share Posted December 13, 1999 > Exactly. Otherwise how can Arjuna, a ksatriya, achieve perfection unless > he too not only achieved brahminical status but superceded it by becoming > a pure vaisnava. And it is for this reason that Prabhupada said women are > brahmanas on spiritual platform only. They are never considered brahmanas > from a social/occupational standpoint. Hence he said "NO!" to women > attending VA Colleges because these colleges were for occupational/social > training. A woman's occupational/social training is received by her mother > at home i.e. how to cook, clean and serve the husband and his family. > Therefore the demands of some women in ISKCON for equal occupational > training and services with the men are at the very least delusions and at > the worst demoniac. > You see, you don't know what you are talking about. Arjuna didn't become pure vaisnava. He was and always is a pure vaisnava. He is an eternal associate of the Lord. Arjuna never became a brahmana, he was always acting as a ksatriya. One is not becoming a pure vaisnava by becoming a brahmana, but by realizing that one is not the doer of the activities carried out by the material nature. When you realize that you are not the doer and that all material activities are carried out by the material nature, then you don't get anymore reaction from the material activities. Material activities are all the time carried out by the material nature, but as long you are identifying, you are getting the reaction, and when you stop identifying then you don't get the reaction (inaction in action). That means giving up false ego. False ego means that you identify yourself as the doer of activities that are actualy carried out by the material nature. 1. What is the difference between a pure devotee material body and a materialistic person material body? There is no difference. a) Material body of a pure devotee is a kind of body that has a soul within who doesn't identify himself as the doer of activities of material body. A pure devotee (soul) performs spiritual activities. Material activities of the pure devotees body are carried out by the material nature, but because the soul knows that is only the modes of material nature acting he doesn't get the reaction and even those material activities are spiritualized in that way. b) Material body of a materialist is a kind of a body that has a soul within who is in a dormant condition (because of not performing spiritual activities) and the soul is thinking that it's him that is performing material activities. > > What I and others hope to achieve is simply to clarify the roles we must > play if we are at all serious about establishing VAD within our ISKCON > communities. How do you establish varnasrama-dharma if you don't even know what is varna? You have to know what is varna in order to be able to clasify bodies. And it is not the souls that are classified. Varnasrama dharma is the classification of the bodies according to the nature of activities that those bodies are performing. Ys. Sraddha dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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