The so-called Sports (including soccer) are GAMBLING

[Guest guest]

>On 19 Dec 1999, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

>>On 18 Dec 1999, Guru-Krsna Dasa wrote:

 

>> You're right, prabhu. I temporarily forgot our philosophy: Simply accept

>>Srila >>Prabhupada in your heart and be guaranteed eternal life in Goloka!

>>

>> Hallelujah!

 

>That's not our philosophy! The correct understanding is kick a soccer ball

and >burn in eternal damnation.

 

Hallelujah! By Jesus, soccer *is* of the devil! Praise the Lord!!! Praise

the

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRDDD!!!

 

>I mean, wasn't that why Prabhupada played goalie -- you don't have to kick

the >ball so much!

 

Ah, out of your causeless mercy you have now resolved an apparent

contradiction and enlightened us with that perfect transcendental

explanation. "Sthitadhi ki jaya!" And what do you think of this one other

reason?: in order to score a goal, players of the opposing team were forced

to take darshan of the ray of Visnu mahabhagavata goalie Abhay Caran!

 

(Now I *am* convinced that any ISKCON nitya-siddha devotee is fully

authorized to be the goalie of a soccer team

 

>Yep, the world is going to hell, and all because of soccer/foriegn

football! >Fortunately, I don't know of too many brahmancaris, or temple

pujaris, etc, who >play soccer, so maybe there is still some hope left.

 

>Where there's no soccer balls, there hope!

 

Hallelujah! Praise Jesus!

 

(And Hare Krsna too!)

[Guest guest]

>

> Since this thread is also running on the Varnasrama Development conference,

> I'll honestly say that I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

> adamant to defend a game like soccer *as opposed to* discussing the many

> other ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

> direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma.

 

Why do you assume it is opposition to? The either/or paradigm so frequently

impose may not be a limitation to some of us, therefore soccer can be seen as

a

tool for establishing VAD. Another tool in the tool box, certainly not meant

to

be the only tool.

 

>

> Srila Prabhupada said that we should train ksatriyas to fight and kill. So

> we *could* be training our children to spar with various weapons, the

> martial arts, etc., instead of bringing them to the soccer fields. After

> all, it's well understood that the main so-called "thrill" of sports is the

> sense of contesting in a battle with the hope for victory. Well, one day it

> might again be a *real* battle to defend Krsna's temple, His devotees, Their

> Lordships (as it has been in the past). Srila Prabhupada told HH Satsavarupa

> M that the day would come when we would be "fired upon." Will our

> mighty-legged soccer champions be brave enough to fight back? I hope so. But

> if not, will we then regret that we didn't train our young, strong, and

> robust offspring in this way? Will us aging "heros" be capable to defend

> even ourselves, what to speak of others?

 

In Kali yuga, age does little to diminish the ability to squeeze a trigger.

Huge

bodily strengths to draw bows is not so relevant. I can't speak for other

soccer

players, but this one isn't at all worried about defending himself for a long

time

to come.

 

As for training ksatriyas, I have a son who played American football, and

went in

buddy system with a teammate into the Marine Corp. The conditioning from

sports

and the teamwork concepts developed are very transferrable to ksatriya arts.

He is

a Marine Corp Reserve Military policeman, studying Business Administration in

college. Until the devotees get there idealized training off the ground, I

guess

we'll have to settle for that..

 

I can see Krsna speaking through you , though. I never would have thought to

defend soccer as an excellent training device for aspiring ksatriyas. Much

preferable to american football, as it is not as dependent on paraphanelia,

which

goes more with the renunciation and portable of Vaisnava culture.

 

Physical conditioning and small unit tactics are intregal parts of any

military

training. what better way to develop these characteristics in young devotees

than

through soccer. Acceptance of a guru type figure in the form of the caoch is

good

training for all varnas. Formal training in martial arts (also generally

considered a sport) is certainly excellent, and would be good cross training

for

any soccer team. Balance and movement are essential in martial arts, and the

combination with soccer which also develops those characteristics would have

benefits for both disciplines. I routinely teach the Horse Stance on the first

day

of practice when I am coaching youngsters, as a matter of fact.

 

Where soccer would have an advantage over martial arts, is that it requires

the

extended use fo techniques over a long period of time in a fluid and

unpredictable

matter, much like an actual battle, and unlike the more formal routinues of

a

martial arts tournament.

 

I used to work in NYC, and once while out walking (a Srila Prabhupada approved

form of excercise) I fell in with a karate club that was playing soccer in the

street, which they did routinuely as part of there training. They were

friendly,

and I started playing with them. Unfortunately, my skills were not on their

level, and an errant pass hit a parked motorcycle, which was unfortunately

one of

a long string parked by a motorcycle club. they immediately became offended

and

came over in a belligerent fashion. Although I had just met the karate club,

they

immediately took defensive positions, and the two groups squared off.

 

The cyclers immediately demanded we vacate the area. It was obvious they were

looking to fight, so we pretty much owned them. The younger members of the

club

were also obviously itching to put some of their training into action, but the

older leaders confered briefly and after paying honors to the cyclers, we

left. I

apologised to them for my miscue and causing trouble, but they laughed it off,

and didn't take it all serious. There was no doubt in my mind, that the

fight,

fought merely hand to had, would have been resolved in our favor. Of course,

in

a street fight, weapons coming into play can't be discounted. The karate

guys

showed that they had their senses more under control, as it certainly wasn't

fear

that made them chose to leave.

 

But I digress. IMHO, soccer is excellent traing for ksatriyas and should be

immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of the VA collwege

cirriculum. Thank you, Guru Krsna, for bringing this to mind. A blessing to

you.

 

>

[Guest guest]

At 01:47 PM 12/20/99 -0500, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan -

USA) wrote:

>[Text 2873167 from COM]

>

>> Since this thread is also running on the Varnasrama Development conference,

>> I'll honestly say that I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

>> adamant to defend a game like soccer *as opposed to* discussing the many

>> other ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

>> direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma.

>

>Why do you assume it is opposition to? The either/or paradigm so frequently

>impose may not be a limitation to some of us, therefore soccer can be seen as

>a tool for establishing VAD. Another tool in the tool box, certainly not

meant to be the only tool.

 

OK. But this is what I'm saying: Srila Prabhupada told us to establish vad,

and he has given volumes and volumes of instructions toward that end. So

what I said above is "I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many other

ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma." Please

note the phrase "direct devotional service," *as opposed to* indirect or

"maybe-it-is-maybe-it-isn't-who-knows?-but-if-it-feels-good-we-can-do-it-in-

the-name-of-some-varna" devotional service.

 

 

>> Will our mighty-legged soccer champions be brave enough to fight back? I

hope so.

>> But if not, will we then regret that we didn't train our young, strong, and

>> robust offspring in this way? Will us aging "heros" be capable to defend

even

>> ourselves, what to speak of others?

>

>In Kali yuga, age does little to diminish the ability to squeeze a trigger.

>Huge bodily strengths to draw bows is not so relevant.

 

Please prabhu, you make it sound as easy as pointing and clicking a mouse.

And that's exactly what our modern-day Western youth are so brainwashed into

thinking: that they're great heroes if they can win the video game gun

battle, or whatever.

Fighting with guns instead of bows and arrows is still not the business of

sudras, vaisyas, brahamanas. We're not talking about target practice,

here--we're talking of battle, which of course may well also mean

hand-to-hand combat, sword-fighting, etc., etc.

 

>I can't speak for other soccer players, but this one isn't at all worried

about >defending himself for a long time to come.

 

Good to hear that we have some Grandfather-Bhisma-types in ISKCON!

 

>As for training ksatriyas, I have a son who played American football, and

went in

>buddy system with a teammate into the Marine Corp. The conditioning from

sports

>and the teamwork concepts developed are very transferrable to ksatriya arts.

 

That's good, but there's still a big difference between transferrable skills

and dirrect skills. Arjuna was so intent to practice military arts that he

practiced at night. He didn't play soccer or football to "keep in shape" for

battle.

 

>I can see Krsna speaking through you , though. I never would have thought to

>defend soccer as an excellent training device for aspiring ksatriyas. Much

>preferable to american football, as it is not as dependent on paraphanelia,

>which goes more with the renunciation and portable of Vaisnava culture.

 

You have the right to your perspective, of course, prabhu. But you know the

saying, "If you want to learn to play soccer, play soccer." Not that we

shoot pool (to developthe skill of propelling a ball into a designated

space) so as to become better soccer players. Similarly, if we want to train

ksatriyas, then we have to train ksatriyas--which means training them

directly (why indirectly? Life is too short) in the martial arts.

 

>Physical conditioning and small unit tactics are intregal parts of any

>military training. what better way to develop these characteristics in

young >devotees than through soccer.

 

Sounds like a good advertisment for a soccer camp But seriously, I've

already proposed what seems to me to be a better way.

 

>Acceptance of a guru type figure in the form of the caoch is good training

for all >varnas.

 

We realize that so many Western things are simplyh perverted reflections of

the Vedic or Aryan. So here in the West we have our imitation gurus and

ksatriyas, our materialistic music and cinema, etc. etc.--our every

perverted reflection of the superior same thing as found originally in Krsna

conscious culture. Therefore, why should we be satisfied with a "guru type

figure" rather than directly a bona fide *guru*?

 

>Where soccer would have an advantage over martial arts, is that it requires

>the extended use fo techniques over a long period of time in a fluid and

>unpredictable matter, much like an actual battle

 

It's good training for sudras, being a leg-centered discipline. (Sudras are

the legs of society, right?) It's good training for sudras who would like to

earn their living by becoming soccer slaves of some commercial sports

enterprise. I humbly submit that such "playing" right into the hands of the

modern capitalistic and atheistic money machine will not help ISKCON to

establish vad or even become self-independent from the big-time atheist

controllers of the present world.

 

>I used to work in NYC, and once while out walking (a Srila Prabhupada

approved

>form of excercise)

 

"Walking" ki jaya!

 

>But I digress. IMHO, soccer is excellent traing for ksatriyas and should be

>immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of the VA collwege

>cirriculum.

 

I wish I could agree with you at least once, prabhu, but still not as yet,

it seems.

I humbly submit that soccer is excellent training for future soccer slaves

of this "nasty Western civilization," whereas the *specific* instructions

given by Srila Prabhupada are the "excellent training for ksatriyas and

[that] should be immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of

the VA college cirriculum."

 

>Thank you, Guru Krsna, for bringing this to mind.

 

Daso 'smi, prabhu.

 

>A blessing to you.

 

Was that a fully guaranteed, irrevocable blessing?

 

--gkdas

[Guest guest]

At 20:15 -0500 12/20/1999, COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA) wrote:

>"I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

>adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many other

>ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

>direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma."

 

Oh now I get it: It's an *either - or* situation. That means the

*real* reason we have not yet established VAD in ISKCON is because

everyone has been too preoccupied wiht playing soccer. No wonder

you're upset!

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/20/1999 3:41:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes:

 

> But I digress. IMHO, soccer is excellent traing for ksatriyas and should be

> immediately instituted in every ISKCON center as part of the VA collwege

> cirriculum. Thank you, Guru Krsna, for bringing this to mind. A

blessing

> to

> you.

>

 

Many sound reasons to institute soccer for boys in spite of the naysayers

..... but I guess if I bring up girls playing soccer it will really send the

soccer defeatists over the edge. ;-) I have found personally that in the

current absence of an established VAD society, being adept at sports in many

ways protects girls. Girls who are not confident or accomplished are subject

to the most debilitating peer pressure. We should not be afraid to have

strong women in our society. Strong, convinced and determined women do not

have a problem taking a secondary role in a family with a qualified man. It

is only emotional weakness and lack of qualification that spurs a man to

minimize women and to try to keep them weak and helpless. A qualified,

confident man ( trained in soccer no doubt) would not exhibit such petty

qualities. yhs, Kanti dasi