Guest guest Posted May 24, 1999 Report Share Posted May 24, 1999 Dear devotees, PAMHO. AGTSP. All glories to my spiritual master Srila Jayapataka Swami Maharaja, by whose mercy I have written this. All glories to all bona fide followers of Srila Prabhupada. Below are a few quotes on the disciplic succession. At the end of each quote, I have provided an analysis of each quote to see if they support the rtvik point of view. I have sometimes used the term "post-humous spiritual master" to refer to a spiritual master who has entered samadhi, one who has departed from the physical plane. I have also used the term "non-post-humous spiritual master" to refer to a living spiritual master. QUOTE 1 "There are many inexperienced persons who advocate self-realization without the help of a spiritual master. They decry the necessity of the spiritual master and try themselves to take his place by propagating the theory that a spiritual master is not necessary. Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, does not approve this viewpoint. Even the great transcendental scholar Vyasadeva had need of a spiritual master, and under the instruction of his spiritual master, Narada, he prepared this sublime literature, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Even Lord Caitanya, although He is Krsna Himself, accepted a spiritual master; even Lord Krsna accepted a spiritual master, Sandipani Muni, in order to be enlightened; and all the acaryas and saints of the world had spiritual masters. In Bhagavad-gita Arjuna accepted Lord Krsna as his spiritual master, although there was no necessity of such a formal declaration. So, in all cases, there is no question about the necessity of accepting a spiritual master. The only stipulation is that the spiritual master should be bona fide; i.e., the spiritual master must be in the proper chain of disciplic succession, called the parampara system." (SB 3.7.39p) ANALYSIS First of all, Srila Prabhupada says: "There are many inexperienced persons who advocate self-realization without the help of a spiritual master. They decry the necessity of the spiritual master and try themselves to take his place by propagating the theory that a spiritual master is not necessary. Srimad-Bhagavatam, however, does not approve this viewpoint." A rtvikist may argue that the term "spiritual master" when applied to the present day ISKCON can be taken to refer to Srila Prabhupada even though he has departed from the physical plane. However, Srila Prabhupada points out here that the "spiritual master" that he is referring to is one with whom one can interactively communicate: "Even the great transcendental scholar Vyasadeva had need of a spiritual master, and under the instruction of his spiritual master, Narada, he prepared this sublime literature, Srimad-Bhagavatam." Narada Muni actually came and spoke with Vyasadeva and instructed him about the Srimad Bhagavatam's teachings. Srila Prabhupada brings up this example to show that a spiritual master in the disciplic succession is actually in the physical proximity of his disciple. But a rtvikist may argue that such a spiritual master like Narada Muni is a siksa-guru of Vyasadeva and not his diksa-guru. There is no necessity that one requires a diksa-guru within the physical proximity of his disciple. However, in order to dissipate this illusion, Srila Prabhupada points out that even the Lord Himself accepts a diksa-guru from within His "physical proximity" in order to teach all of us to do alike. Srila Prabhupada explains this point thus: "Even Lord Caitanya, although He is Krsna Himself, accepted a spiritual master; even Lord Krsna accepted a spiritual master, Sandipani Muni, in order to be enlightened; and all the acaryas and saints of the world had spiritual masters." One should note that Lord Caitanya accepted a spiritual master, Isvara Puri, as His diksa-guru. And Lord Krsna accepted Sandipani Muni as a diksa-guru. Both of Them, in Their pastimes, took diksa from living gurus. Neither Vyasadeva, nor Lord Caitanya, nor Lord Krsna took diksa from post-humous gurus. Neither did "all the acaryas and saints of the word" ever do so. "In Bhagavad-gita Arjuna accepted Lord Krsna as his spiritual master, although there was no necessity of such a formal declaration. So, in all cases, there is no question about the necessity of accepting a spiritual master." Even Arjuna accepted Lord Krsna as his spiritual master when the Lord was present on the physical plane. Srila Prabhupada uses the significant term "in all cases." There is no question about the necessity of accepting a non-post-humous spiritual master. "The only stipulation is that the spiritual master should be bona fide; i.e., the spiritual master must be in the proper chain of disciplic succession, called the parampara system." (SB 3.7.39p) The above is clear. --- QUOTE 2 "One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava... One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system." (CC Antya 7.53p) ANALYSIS The rtvikist says that one can make all spiritual advancement simply by reading a book of Srila Prabhupada and that one does not need to serve a living guru, a representative of Srila Prabhupada. But here, Srila Prabhupada points out that "One must become a servant of a Vaisnava." A rtvikist may argue that one can accept Srila Prabhupada as his guru and he can still serve the Vaisnavas. But Srila Prabhupada refutes this idea by saying "One must accept a Vaisnava guru." The rtvikist may argue that Srila Prabhupada is the greatest Vaisnava guru and that requirement is fully satisfied in the post-samadhi rtvik system. However, Srila Prabhupada says that "by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is." One should ask the Vaisnava guru, whose shelter he has obtained, questions and elicit answers from the Vaisnava guru. How is it possible for a neophyte devotee to ask questions and elicit answers from a post-humous guru? That would be absurd and unscientific. Therefore it has to be concluded by the learned that Srila Prabhupada is here talking of a living Vaisnava guru. Srila Prabhupada then concludes, "That is called the parampara system." This system of approaching a Vaisnava guru, becoming his servant, and asking the Vaisnava guru questions on pure devotional service and receiving his answers, is the parampara system. The rtviks sustain that one can take shelter of Srila Prabhupada as their diksa-guru and the principle of the parampara system remains intact. But here in this purport, Srila Prabhupada teaches otherwise: we need a guru with whom one can interactively communicate on pure devotional service. --- QUOTE 3 "Perhaps you have heard the name of Sankaracarya. Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Lord Caitanya. In India there have been many, many great scholars. Even Krsna. Krsna, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He had a spiritual master because He wanted to show the example. He did not require any circumstances to acquire knowledge from any other, but because He was playing just like a human being, so He set the example that He accepted a spiritual master. There are instances. So similarly, Lord Caitanya also, He accepted spiritual master. Sankaracarya accepted spiritual master. That is the system. Evam parampara- praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. The disciplic successon must be accepted." (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita in 1966, 660725BG.NY) ANALYSIS As in Quote 1, Srila Prabhupada refers to many great acaryas who accepted non-post-humous (living) diksa-gurus. Srila Prabhupada says, "Even Krsna." A rtvikist may argue that this has no relevance to present day ISKCON. But Srila Prabhupada explains that this is greatly relevant to us because the Lord "set the example" for us, human beings. Similarly, Lord Caitanya also. Srila Prabhupada explains: "This is the system" and refers to the famous Gita 4.2 verse. Srila Prabhupada emphatically concludes that such a disciplic succession of living gurus "must be accepted." --- QUOTE 4 "Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. Abhigacchet means "He must!" There is not that "I may go or I may not." No, you must. If you really serious. In our Vaisnava-parampara also... Vaisnava-parampara is actually Vedic parampara. That adau gurvasrayam, Adau gurvasrayam: "To enter into the spiritual life, first thing is first of all to accept a guru." That is... All big, big stalwarts... Even Vyasadeva." (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita in 1972, 721130BG.HYD) ANALYSIS A pro-rtvik may interpret the above quote to mean that one must approach Srila Prabhupada. According to some people, adau gurvasrayam means to accept Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada reveals to us that one must accept a non-post-humous spiritual master by saying, "Even Vyasadeva." Vyasadeva accepted a living spiritual master, Narada Muni. Srila Prabhupada also says, "All big, big, stalwarts..." because all big, big, stalwarts such as Ramanujacarya, Nimbarka, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted non-post-humous diksa-gurus (Cf Quote 3). Since Srila Prabhupada has entered into samadhi, we must accept Srila Prabhupada's teaching that we MUST accept a non-post-humous diksa guru. "There is not that "I may go or I may not." No, you must." You must accept a non-post-humous diksa-guru. --- QUOTE 5 "We must accept a guru. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreyah uttamam. If you are actually eager, anxious to understand the spiritual science, then you must approach a guru. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreyah uttamam. Uttama means transcendental subject matter. You cannot learn it. Just like if you purchase one pharmacology book from the bookseller's shop, and if you read, at home, do you mean that you become a medical practitioner, pharmacist? No. You must go to the university, you must go to the college, You must hear the experienced professor and learn it and practically experiment it. Then you can learn. Not that by purchasing a book you become a medical practitioner or lawyer. That is not possible. Therefore the direction is that tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet: "Must."" (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita in 1972, 721130BG.HYD) ANALYSIS "Uttama means transcendental subject matter. You cannot learn it." One cannot "learn" spiritual life simply by reading books on the transcendental subject matter. One needs to approach a living guru, a non-post-humous guru to guide him. Srila Prabhupada next says, "Just like..." This is highly significant. Srila Prabhupada equates trying to progress in spiritual life by studying the sastras without a living guru to the attempt of a student who, without going to the medical college, and receiving training from a medical practitioner. "Then you can learn. Not that by purchasing a book you become a medical practitioner or lawyer. That is not possible." Srila Prabhupada then says, "Therefore the direction is that tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet: "Must."" Srila Prabhupada's usage of the word "Therefore" is also significant. This means that in spiritual life ALSO one requires a living guru, not a post-humous guru. --- QUOTE 6 "Therefore one has to learn this science from the parampara system. Evam parampara-praptam. You have to go to the right person who knows Krsna. Evam parampara... Just like Surya, the Vivasvan, he was instructed by Krsna. So if you take instruction from Vivasvan, from the sun-god, then you get the perfect knowledge. But you cannot go to the sun planet and ask Vivasvan, "What Krsna spoke to you?" Therefore Vivasvan transferred the knowledge to his son, Manu. This age is called Vaivasvata Manu. This age. Now, Vivasvan, because he's the son of Vivasvan, therefore this Manu is called Vaivasvata Manu. Vaivasvata Manu. Now the age is going of Vaivasvata Manu. Manur iksvakave 'bravit. So Manu also spoke to his son. So in this way, evam parampara-praptam, He's giving some examples, but the knowledge has to be received by the parampara." (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita in 1974, 740322BG.BOM) ANALYSIS "Therefore one has to learn this science from the parampara system. Evam parampara-praptam. You have to go to the right person who knows Krsna." Srila Prabhupada's usage of the expression "right person" indicates that one should go to a living person. But a rtvikist may object that Srila Prabhupada is certainly a "right person who knows Krsna." Therefore Srila Prabhupada clarifies what going to the "right person" means below: "Evam parampara... Just like Surya, the Vivasvan, he was instructed by Krsna. So if you take instruction from Vivasvan, from the sun-god, then you get the perfect knowledge." Vivasvan came in the disciplic succession. So we can take knowledge from him. Similarly, rtvikists argue, Srila Prabhupada is in the disciplic succession; So we can approach him and "get the perfect knowledge." "But you cannot go to the sun planet and ask Vivasvan, "What Krsna spoke to you?" Therefore Vivasvan transferred the knowledge to his son, Manu." The above is *very important* to help us understand the reason behind the existence of the disciplic succession wherein transcendental knowledge is transferred from one person to another. One CANNOT go to the sun planet and establish a communication link with Vivasvan. That is the point. Even though Vivasvan comes in the disciplic succesion and is a "right person who knows Krsna,YOU CANNOT GO TO THE SUN PLANET AND ASK VIVASVAN." One cannot interactively communicate with Vivasvan asking him questions and receiving answers. Because you cannot interactively communicate with Vivasvan, Srila Prabhupada says, "Therefore..." Therefore Vivasvan transferred the knowledge to his son, Manu and the disciplic succession continued enabling a succession of Vaisnavas to be available to people so that they can ask them about Krsna consciousness. Just as "you cannot go to the sun planet and ask Vivasvan," you cannot go to Goloka Vrndavana (or whichever planet Srila Prabhupada is right now) and ask Srila Prabhupada questions on the science of Krsna consciousness and receive answers for him. Similarly, you cannot establish an interactive communication link with him through his murti or his books. THEREFORE Srila Prabhupada has transferred transcendental knowledge to his disciples. But some way or other, the parampara being lost... Just like I have spoken something to my disciple." --- QUOTE 7 "So here is the expert physician, Narada Muni. And he is advising his disciple to make him expert. This is called parampara system. In the same way, we are coming from the same disciplic succession. As Narada Muni was expert physician for curing this material disease, similarly, he made Vyasadeva expert physician; Vyasadeva made Madhvacarya expert physician. So one has to come down in that disciplic succession and become expert physician, or bona fide spiritual master. Here, as we require to go to a physician, to a medical man, for curing our material, I mean, bodily diseases, similarly, to cure our material disease, one has to approach an expert spiritual, bona fide spiritual master. Otherwise it is not possible. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. That is the injunction of the Vedas." (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam in 1969, 690616SB.NV) ANALYSIS Here Srila Prabhupada explains that the parampara system is one in which each "expert physician" spiritual master makes his disciple an "expert physician." "Here, as we require to go to a physician, to a medical man, for curing our material, I mean, bodily diseases, similarly, to cure our material disease, one has to approach an expert spiritual, bona fide spiritual master." Srila Prabhupada's usage of the expressions "Here, as we..." and "similarly" prove that just as you require to go to a non-post-humous or living physician or a "medical man" to cure bodily diseases, one has to approach a non-post-humous living spiritual master to cure the disease of material existence. "Otherwise it is not possible. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. That is the injunction of the Vedas." Otherwise, if one tries to make advancement in spiritual life without accepting a non-post-humlous spiritual master, it is not possible, because "that is the injunction of the Vedas." --- QUOTE 8 "Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. We should decide by the order of Krsna through the disciplic succession, via media, the spiritual master. That is required. A devotee cannot decide personally. If Krsna desires... If somebody says that, "We cannot see Krsna personally," then you have to decide by Krsna's representative. If your spiritual master, guru, says that, "You do this," that is Krsna's order. That is Krsna's order. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam in 1974, 740108SB.LA) ANALYSIS This quote shows that every devotee needs to decide by Krsna's representative through the disciplic succession. "That is required." If one accepts a post-humous guru in the disciplic succession, it will not help because one cannot be sure as to the right course of action. But if one's living spiritual master, guru, says that, "You do this," Srila Prabhupada says, it should be taken as Krsna's order. --- QUOTE 9 "This is called parampara servant. My spiritual master is the servant of his spiritual master, and I am also servant of my spiritual master. Similarly, we think, "servant of the servant." ...Nija-bhrtya-parsvam, Nija-bhrtya-parsvam means just like apprentice. Apprentice, one apprentice is engaged to one expert man. By and by, the apprentice learns how to do the things. Therefore he says, nija-bhrtya-parsvam. "Not that immediately I become very expert servant, but let me..."" (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam in 1976, 760302SB.MAY) ANALYSIS This quote shows that one should become an "apprentice" servant of a servant in the disciplic succession. A rtvikist may claim that he is a servant of Srila Prabhupada, who is a servant of his spiritual master who is a servant of his spiritual master in the disciplic succession and that he is a servant of the servant in this way, through Srila Prabhupada. But above, Srila Prabhupada, reveals that one requires to serve a living, non-post-humous member of the disciplic succession. Srila Prabhupada gives the relevant example of an apprentice: "Apprentice, one apprentice is engaged to one expert man. By and by, the apprentice learns how to do the things." One cannot be an apprentice to a post-humous expert man. The term apprentice means that he is a living student-assistant to one expert man and by practical training on the physical plane the apprentice learns how to do the things. Similarly we have to be a "nija-bhrtya-parsvam," a devotional apprentice to a non-post-humous, living "expert man" in Krsna consciousness. --- QUOTE 10 "So Krsna, if you cannot meet Krsna, you can meet with Krsna's representative. Krsna may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Parampara." (Room Conversation, London, July 11, 1973; 730711R2.LON) ANALYSIS Srila Prabhupada elucidates on the principle of the parampara here by explaining that one can communicate with Lord Krsna by communicating "with" His "physically present" representative. We should note that Srila Prabhupada says, "Krsna may not be physically present, BUT HIS REPRESENTATIVE IS PHYSICALLY PRESENT. YOU CAN TALK WITH HIM." The sentence "You can talk with him" is greatly significant in this context. One can certainly pray to Srila Prabhupada and talk "to" Srila Prabhupada. But can one talk WITH Srila Prabhupada now, after his physical departure? The expression "talk with" reveals that such talking is interactive communication. How can we interactively communicate with a post-humous spiritual master? So a doctrine which teaches devotees to take initiation from a post-humous spiritual master such as Srila Prabhupada cannot be "the system of the Bhagavad-gita," or "Parampara." Yours in the service of my spiritual master and the Vaisnavas, VGD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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