RE: Bhaktarupa prabhu's personal answer.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaktarupa prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and his

pure followers! Thank you for your kind answer.

 

> Dear Krishna Kirtan Mataji, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

Would you kindly agree to join GBC Restructure

> > conference? We badly need your input there. Thanks in advance for your

> > answer to me on this issue.

 

> I don't know anything about this conference. I am sure there are many

> sincere devotees who are participating there and I would certainly benefit

> from hearing their realizations. However, I am sure to be a member there

> must be some rules and some commitment to be made.

 

NO, absolutely no commitment. Sri Rama Prabhu is setting the rules so that

the discussion can go on smoothly and efficiently. The goal is to come up

with a sound proposal to reform ISKCON leadership.

 

I don't know if I would

> be able to keep the commitment. Perhaps there is some official endorsement

> of the conference by the GBC Body? Or is it just a adhoc group who wants

> to distill out an eventual proposal or set of proposals?

 

Yes, it is an open and public conference and we need all the input we can

get to find the best way to help ISKCON Leadership out of the mess. Please

ask Sri Rama Prabhu to help you join the conference, if you are not able to

do it by yourself on com. We need your very mature and thoughtful approach.

Many thanks in advance for helping us find the best system to lead ISKCON

according to Hari, Guru, Sastras and sadhus.

 

> I see very little need for a brahminical body. If it has teeth then it

> will come in conflict with the GBC.

 

Why come in conflict? Why can't they discuss the matter deeply and

thoroughly before taking big decisions? Can't we learn to discuss

efficiently and unmotivately and find an agreement for Srila Prabhupada's

pleasure?

 

If it has no teeth then it will either

> be a rubber stamp of the GBC to satisfy the critics or it will be ignored

> as "impractical". Face it, ISKCON is an institution. There is an inside

> and an outside. Some will be included. Some will be excluded. And someone

> has to make the hard choices as to who's in and who's out. That's the GBC,

> for better or worse. And they will continue to make mistakes. Some will be

> unfairly treated. Some nonsense will get the Good Housekeeping Seal of

> Approval. It's the law of life and institutions. Better to face the facts

> and then try to keep life simple. We may spend all of our energy in trying

> to keep a more complex system of checks and balances going against the

> forces of Kali Yuga and in the process forget to chant Hare Krishna.

 

Why should we forget to chant Hare Krsna in the process? I don't understand

what you mean here. I personally do not think the mess we are in, was

unavoidable. Why shouldn't we try to set a system of leadership along the

lines of varnasram as Srila Prabhupada has asked us to do in his books?

 

We need one day or another to implement these 50% of His mission that he

could not establish because of our lack of maturity 30 years ago. Now, we

have in Iskcon very qualified brahmanas to guide the ksatryas (managers) and

they in turn, have to see that everybody is nicely engaged according to

their natural tendencies and qualifications. Why shouldn't we start now

implementing this system at ISKCON's head first?

 

It is thoroughly explained through all of Srila Prabhupada's books.

Why do you think it can't work? Or it is a useless waste of time?

I do not understand exactly what you mean here. Would you kindly clarify?

 

Can't we all now, get it together, and make sure it works?

 

Srila Prabhupada said on Oct, 24, 1972 in Vrndavana:

"Varnasrama is very important in human society. Unless society accepts the

principles of varna and asrama, it is an animal society...That is Vedic

culture...In the Visnu Purana it is said...'The Supreme Personality of

Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshipped by the proper execution of prescribed

duties in the system of varna and asram. There is no other way to satisfy

the Supreme Lord"...

 

Why should we not start now implementing Srila Prabhupada's instructions at

ISKCON' very head? Do you have any objection? In prabhupada's books the

kings or managers are always advised and supervised by brahmanas. We also

want this kind of council to guide and supervise the GBC. What is wrong with

that. A very pure and learned brahmana can't change a GBC's immoral or wrong

decision, but a board of them can certainly stop the GBCs from hurting so

many devotees in our Society. Don't you think so?

 

> Better to have a simple system and chant more. Certainly the holy name has

> the power to check and balance anything. Even if someone unfairly gets

> excluded they can still chant and go back to godhead. And if some nonsense

> gets approved then the perpetrators will still go to hell, ISKCON approval

> or no ISKCON approval. We should not take ourselves so seriously and think

> that we can stop the tide of Kali yuga with our fertile imaginations, and

> thereby make ISKCON perfect, or maybe just near-perfect.

 

So why did Srila Prabhupada give so many instructions on varnasrama all over

his books if it is so useless ("our fertile imagination")? Did he ever say

that the GBC should decide who is qualified to be a guru and who is not?

Why are the leaders speculating? Is it not our duty as Prabhupada's

followers to see that qualified brahmanas are protected, respected and

honoured properly in His movement? Is it not our duty as Prabhupada's

disciples to correct things according to Srila Prabhupada's instructions,

and ask for the best standard of leadership along the lines of varnasram?

Why should we let everybody leave ISKCON ranks out of frustration with their

leadership?

 

Do you personally think that Srila Prabhupada is pleased with the present

GBC Body? Do you think they are performing their duties properly? Do you

think they can have hundreds of disciples and be efficient as managers for

our society at the same time?

 

I don't understand your point here. Should we just chant Hare Krsna and let

Srila Prabhupada go to court because of the mistakes of the present and past

leaders? Is that the ISKCON you want? Please enlighten me I am confused by

your answer.

 

> I don't know what is your suggested criteria for appointing such a jury,

> but it is impossible to have a body which is completely apolitical.

 

Prabhu, in any court of the world there are qualified judges and jury. Why

do we think, as ISKCON devotees, we are above the rules and regulations of

this world? The experience has proven that to chant Hare Krsna is not

enough. We now need to settle a system to prevent abuses and to encourage

pure and thoughtful men instead of discouraging them constantly.

 

You know perfectly and better than me, what qualities or "criteria" you

would like to see in, or select for, these jury members, and I do agree with

you that they should be apolitical and genuine brahmanas. Do you think we do

not have these qualified brahmanas in ISKCON?

 

> > > c. Generally such a body will fill up with those that want to be known

> > > as philosophically astute individuals as opposed to those who are

> > > actually astute.

 

> > Please allow me to doubt your statement here. If

> > we had a genuine jury, that would not be so, you can rest assured.

> > Krsna is also in the heart of a qualified jury, and He always

> > personally makes sure the truth is exposed to pure and sincere devotees.

> > I am positive and confident on that one.

 

> Try it and see. I remain sceptical.

 

Thank you for your blessings. We want to try it definitely, but first the

GBC has to be convinced that it is Srila Prabhupada's plan for ISKCON on a

long term basis. Without their consent, what can we do?

 

If you have a good plan for convening

> such a jury that everyone will have faith in to appoint a pure, sharp, and

> qualified body, then why not just have them appoint the GBC Body instead!

> Then with an ideal GBC Body in place you won't need to have any checks and

> balances at all!

 

Yes, this we want to do also, but we will still need checks and balance;

because, as human beings, we will always need to be checked and assessed in

our services. We are all subject to the 4 imperfections so we need to

protect ourselves by seeking guidance from qualified brahmanas. Yes, I do

agree with you, qualified brahmanas are everywhere and not only in our HBC

(KK dasi's proposal). That is true.

 

But, we also need this High Brahmanical Council, to research matter

seriously and objectively, and advise in a mature, knowledgeable, and

peaceful way our own GBC members, and all members who are not able or do not

have the time to research thoroughly and come with their own conclusions. I

don't think one council exclude other mature and thoughtful

brahmanas'comments, preaching, and personal realizations in ISKCON. As you

say the truth is in Guru, Sastras and Sadhus; so why shouldn't we take all

the help we can get, starting with helping the GBC in an organized way?

 

In France this board is called the "senat" and they are considered the

"great sages" of the RES PUBLICA by the French politicians. They are just

balancing and guiding the politicians in their decisions and asking for more

thinking when they find a resolution is not thoughtful enough. They are not

an impediment to other writers, preachers, critics, or reformers.

 

Not in the least! As you know the French people are very independant minded

and they would not tolerate to be shut up by a higher council. So it never

happens here. Everybody can share freely what they think in the mass media

and everywhere they want.

 

It is a pretty fair system. If it works nicely out there why not

implementing it in ISKCON too, especially when it is according to guru,

sastra and sadhus, as in the varnasram system? I do not understand your

misgivings. Would you kindly elaborate on your personal doubts about setting

a varnasram structure at ISKCON's head?

 

Srila Prabhupada was a very practicle manager. He asked us repeatedly to use

our brain and use what works. So why not try it? What do we have to loose?

Can ISKCON GBC body acts in a really worse way than what they have done

already?

 

> > They might not be considered written in stone, but they should certainly

> > be evaluated honestly, followed in the meantime, and be subjected to

> > review, if necessary, at the next Mayapura meeting. Noone is infaillible

> > in this world, I do agree with that, but we can set sufficient

> > safeguards to avoid the worst.

> > In our proposal no managers will settle any theological dispute. That is

> > not the only the priviledge of an elected brahmanical council, but at

> > least they can help tremendously sort out the issue if they are

apolitical and qualified brahmanas, don't you think that was the system in

old ages? Weren't the kings advised by a board of selected brahmanas?

 

> But the problems are managerial problems, not theological problems. 99.99%

> of them. If they appear to be theological problems then they are simply

> managerial problems masquerading. The ritvik problem is managerial, the

> jiva issue was also. But both sides try to dress up their managerial

> problems in theological terms in order to claim some absolute ground. Then

> they don't have to bend an inch (because it's there in the books!!!!)

> We have developed a culture in ISKCON whereby lower level devotees learn

> that if you like to be told what to believe then you quickly climb the

> ladder of success. You are now saying that rather than change this culture

> we just have to make sure that what we tell the devotees what to believe

> is the right thing to believe. Our brahminical council will make the right

> decisions most of the time, then everyone will tune up their beliefs just

> right. Then everything is OK (especially since I don't have to think

> anymore, because if I happen to think something different from what the

> brahminical council says then I will quickly lose my institutional

> prestige). But that is not what will make ISKCON strong. It is a recipe

> for weakness. Blind faith. Better that the sannyasis and independent

> brahmins speak on the issues of the day. One will say one thing. Another

> will say from another perspective. That's healthy, because I will be

> inspired to chant my rounds more sincerely, read the Bhagavatam more

> carefully, and try to reconcile the various views. I will not be content

> that I am a good little institutional follower, rather the institution

> will make me a better devotee by exposing me to the controversies in a

> healthy environment.

 

We do agree on that one 100%. Our only concern is to avoid the major GBC's

blunders in order not to loose all our devotees one after an other.

That is why we want the proper system established by Lord Krsna to be set in

motion in ISKCON too.

 

Our leadership system is presently settled in such a way, that the GBCs have

all the power: to destroy or to perfectly ignore all the standards Srila

Prabhupada had carefully established everywhere, and in every field of

actions as described in His books. So we want to change that as soon as

possible. Do you agree with that?

 

That does not mean we shall not encourage independant thinking. We just want

to regulate the GBC's power over our Society members. That's all.

 

But since when is it the purpose of

> ISKCON to make spiritual life easy for you and comfortable for the

> managers? Better ISKCON be the anvil, Krishna's mercy the hammer, and our

> desires the iron rod to be made into something useful for preaching. No

> pain, no gain.

> Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

 

I might not share your personal vision here. I do prefer the vision

described in Srila Prabhupada's books. Everybody is in his right place, and

nobody is doing someone else's service. I think that would only be fair, and

likely, most pleasing to Krsna.

 

I am not looking for peace personally, but I am looking for honesty and

purity at all levels of leadership. So my conclusion was: unless we have the

proper structure, nobody is taking responsibily for anything, and for me

that is most insane, isn't it?

 

We are just trying to settle an organization that will please Lord Visnu,

Srila Prabhupada, and set again our leadership on the right track. I don't

think ISKCON is above varnasrama, personally, do you?

 

Thank you for taking the time to study our letters, and share with us your

proposal to make the leadership more efficient in keeping our devotees in

Srila Prabhupada's movement and not outside of it.

 

Just like Deity worship helps keeping pure even though the Holy Name is all

powerful, I am also convinced that the varnasram structure helps doing the

right thing, at the right moment, and by the right person.

 

What do you think Dear Prabhu? Are you sceptic all along the line?

 

your humble servant, Krsna-kirtana dasi.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaktarupa Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances and apologies for my strong words.

 

You wrote:

> Dear Krishna Kirtan Mataji, PAMHO. AGTSP!

> Thank for your response. I am certainly in agreement that the society's

> management should be set up along varnasrama lines and that failure to do

> this has been the main source of problems over the past 30 years. My

> concern, though, is that if we do not have a thorough understanding of the

> strengths of varnasrama, as well as the requirements to truly make it

> flourish, we will create a bigger mess. Srila Prabhupada's simple

> management plan for ISKCON is more amenable to supporting varnasrama

> principles in the modern age than any other system I could imagine. The

> way we have used the system has resulted in the opposite effect, but that

> does not mean we need to change the system. All of the other systems I

> have heard proposed suggest instituting either democratic principles or

> institutionalized brahmanas (or both). Neither type of system can support

> true varnasrama principles, as they are both directly opposed to

> varnasrama. Brahmanas are always in a minority, yet they should lead

> society -- democracy will bring sudras to prominence, as they are the

> greatest in number. Simultaneously, brahmanas are independently thoughtful

> and can expound on leadership principles to those who properly approach

> them, but they will not stand in the front and tell everyone to follow.

> Thus if you want to create a position of "brahmana", real brahmanas will

> seldom agree to join up, whereas those that want the "brahmana" rubber

> stamp will happily fill the positions. Thus you will create only caste

> brahmanas -- brahmanas by rubber stamp instead of by guna and karma.

 

> And the other basic misconception about varnasrama is that there is

> something brahminical about managing ISKCON. We all list, setting

> spiritual standards, applying the philosophy to time, place and

> circumstances, and organizing educational programs, as brahminical work.

> Nothing could be further from the truth. This is the work of ksatriyas.

 

So, in other words you are saying that the GBC's duties are those of

ksatriyas? And to be guided by brahmanas should be their free choice. They

may or may not do it, it is up to them only to decide? Am I correct?

 

> We have to create a climate where real brahmanas flourish. Organize

> educational programs, support the arts, finance research and publication

> activities. Naturally, brahmanas will flourish in such an environment. But

> create a post called "brahmana" and everyone will be satisfied that we are

> led by brahmanas. We will be cheated.

 

So now, do you mean that the GBC should not share their legislative power

with a higher brahminical board as this council will be composed of devotees

that are not genuine brahmanas? The GBCs should only encourage a

brahminical culture in their zone? Am I right?

 

> Brahmanas are directly Krishna's representatives. And we all know how

> difficult it is to capture Krishna. Making a brahminical board is like

> placing a piece of carved stone on a platform and demanding that Krishna

> appear there. Sure, we can tell everyone it is a deity, but is it? By

> creating a brahminical board can we demand that brahmanas sit there and

> guide us? Real brahmanas have no use for your titles, your salaries, your

> fancy boardrooms. If some manager is insincere and brings a brahmana a

> management proposal for his vote, he may say, "Sure, go ahead. I approve."

> Is this what you would call being guided by brahmanas?

 

> Some specific points:

> Will the GBC listen to the results or will they again convene a study

> group to consider the findings of the conference? Have they given any

> assurance? (This is not a facetious question. I genuinely want to know.)

 

Please ask Sri Rama prabhu for his plan on this matter as he is the main

organizer.

 

> > Yes, it is an open and public conference and we need all the input we

> > can get to find the best way to help ISKCON Leadership out of the mess.

> > Please ask Sri Rama Prabhu to help you join the conference, if you are

> > not able to do it by yourself on com. We need your very mature and

> > thoughtful approach. Many thanks in advance for helping us find the best

> > system to lead ISKCON according to Hari, Guru, Sastras and sadhus.

 

> Sri Ram Prabhu last night invited me to submit a proposal. I am waiting to

> hear further from him.

 

> > > I don't know what is your suggested criteria for appointing such a

> > > jury, but it is impossible to have a body which is completely

> > > apolitical.

 

> > Prabhu, in any court of the world there are qualified judges and jury.

> > Why do we think, as ISKCON devotees, we are above the rules and

> > regulations of this world? The experience has proven that to chant Hare

> > Krsna is not enough.

 

> The topmost rule and regulation of this world is to chant Hare Krishna.

> With all due respect, your statement is total nonsense. Experience has

> only proven that we have not chanted properly. Sastra tells us that to

> chant Hare Krishna is enough. Do we now doubt sastra because of our

> experience?

 

Prabhu, then if chanting is enough why did Srila Prabhupada installed

Deities all over the world? Why should we also perform Arcana?

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Sometimes neophyte devotees think that they can continue

the sravana-kirtana process without worshiping the Deity, but the execution

of sravana-kirtana is meant for highly developed devotees like Haridas

Thakura, who engaged in the sravana-kirtana process without worshiping the

Deity. However,one should not falsely imitate Haridas Thakura and abandon

Deity worship just to try to engage in sravana-kirtana."(C.c.Madhya19.152,

Purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada:"The answer is that even though the chanting of the holy

name is sufficient to enable one to progress in spiritual life to the

standard of love of Godhead, -one is nonetheless susceptible to

contamination because of possessing a material body...One should therefore

regularly take advantage of both the bhagavat process and pancaratriki

process." (S.B.7.5.28, Purport)

 

Is Srila Prabhupada only asking us to chant Hare Krsna?

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Arjuna was not a brahmana; he was ksatriya. He was not a

sannyasi; he was a grhastha, a householder and a king. He knew how to kill.

So, by killing he satisfied Krsna. 'Samsiddhir hari-tosanam'. That was the

whole purpose of the Bhagavat-gita. Arjuna was unwilling to kill, and Krsna

was inducing him,'you must kill'. And when Arjuna agreed to kill, then Krsna

became satisfied and Arjuna became perfect...So this is real Dharma...

Somehow or other, satisfy Krsna. Arjuna satisfied Krsna by killing. Killing

is not a very good art. But because by killing, Arjuna satisfied Krsna,

Krsna gave him a certificate: 'bhakto'si me sakha ceti', Oh, you are My very

dear friend...So, if you do anything sanctioned by Krsna, or by His bona

fide representative, that is real dharma. 'samsiddhir hari-tosanam. Thank

you very much. (SP's tape oct,24, 1972.)

 

 

> > In France this board is called the "senat" and they are considered the

> > "great sages" of the RES PUBLICA by the French politicians. They are

> > just balancing and guiding the politicians in their decisions and asking

> > for more thinking when they find a resolution is not thoughtful enough.

> > They are no impediment for other writers, preachers, critics, or

> > reformers.

 

> I am not at all opposed to having a formalized group which specializes in

> scriptural research and which advises the legislators on current issues.

> This is a very valuable idea. But just don't spread the illusion that this

> is brahminical work. It is sudra work. For intelligent sudras. In Vedic

> culture there was a separate caste for them, called now "Kaaranas".

 

Very interesting comment. I will research further on that one.

 

> > Our leadership system is presently settled in such a way, that the GBCs

> > have all the power: to destroy or to perfectly ignore all the standards

> > Srila Prabhupada had carefully established everywhere, and in every

> > field of actions as described in His books, without being checked by

> > anybody. So we want to change that as soon as possible. Do you agree

with that?

 

> Managers always have the power to destroy everything. The GBC would have

> never made such a big mess if the general devotees had not been so willing

> to accept them as infallible leaders, in spite of their nonsensical

> behavior. Educate the devotees to seek out truly detached brahmanas as

> their ultimate guides and the GBC will be naturally controlled.

 

> > We are just trying to settle an organization that will please Lord

> > Visnu, Srila Prabhupada, and set again our leadership on the right

> > track. I don't think ISKCON is above varnasrama, personally, do you?

 

> No. But we should not be so ready to whimsically change the systems

> already set up by Srila Prabhupada just because we haven't used them

> properly.

> Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

 

OK. So what I have understood here is that this Scriptural research

committee to advise the GBC on legislative issues should not be called

Higher Brahminical Council. Instead, they should only be servants of the

GBCs? The GBCs do not need anybody to guide them formally? Is that what you

mean?

 

Thank you to please confirm or correct my understanding on this precise

issue concerning my proposal.

 

Your servant, Krsna-kirtana dasi.