Guest guest Posted September 19, 2000 Report Share Posted September 19, 2000 At 09:25 PM 9/19/00 +0500, Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius) wrote: >Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.41 Purport >"In this verse the words saksad bhagavatoktena guruna harina are very >significant. The Supreme Personality of Godhead speaks directly to the >individual soul when the devotee has completely purified himself by >rendering devotional service to the Lord. Lord Krsna confirms this also in >Bhagavad Gita (10.10). "To those who are constantly devoted and worship me >with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to me." > >The Lord is the Supersoul situated in everyones heart, and he acts as caitya >guru, the spiritual master within. However, he gives direct instructions >only to the advanced, pure devotees. In the beginning, when a devotee is >serious and sincere, the Lord gives him directions from within to approach a >bonafide spiritual master. When one is trained by the spiritual master >according to the regulative principles of devotional service and situated on >the platform of spontaneous attachment for the Lord (raga-bhakti), the Lord >also gives instructions from within.Tesam satata yuktanam bhajatam priti >purvakam. This distinct advantage is obtained by a liberated soul. Having >attained this stage, King Malayadvaja was directly in touch with the Supreme >Lord and was receiving instructions from Him directly." > >This is the kind of 'distinct' advantage that we could really do with to >solve ISKCON's problems. As SriRama prabhu has pointed out, there is no lack >of good arguments, but finding the answer to ALL the problems, in one >comprehensive solution, really needs someone with the above mentioned >advantage. > >What is the platform of raga bhakti? > >NOD page 119 >"Examples of spontaneous devotional service can be easily seen in Krsnas >direct associates in Vrndavana. The spontaneous dealings of the residents of >Vrindavana in relationship with Krsna are called raganuga. These beings >don't have to learn anything about devotional service; they are already >perfect in all regulative principles and have achieved the spontaneous >loving service of the Supreme personality of Godhead. For example the >cowherd boys who are playing with Krsna do not have to learn by austerities >or penances or yogic practice how to play with Him. They have passed all >tests of regulative principles in their previous lives, and as a result they >are now elevated to the position of direct association with krsna as His >dear friends. Their spontaneous attitude is called raganuga bhakti. > >Rupa Goswami has defined raganuga bhakti as spontaneous attraction for >something while completely absorbed in thoughts in it, with an intense >desire of love. Devotional service executed with such feelings of >spontaneous love is called raganuga bhakti." I don't think anyone could disagree. Moreover, I would submit that Srila Prabhupada intended that ISKCON have dozens, if not hundreds, of such souls by now (not just one). Does anyone think he intended that his disciples remain on the kanistha platform decade after decase? That's not to say that many devotees aren't very advanced, but that we all must make great spiritual advancement by sadhana and surrender. That more of us aren't on this platform has made a huge opening for Narayan Maharaj's followers, if you believe that they're preying on ISKCON. If we had all taken Srila Prabhupada's desire that we make (as he wrote me on intitiation) "rapid advancement in Krishna consciousness," ISKCON would be what he expected it to be. Your servant, Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2000 Report Share Posted September 20, 2000 There is no difference between sadhana bhakti and raganuga bhakti. They are both same just like the two sides of a leaf. The top smooth surface of the leaf is raganuga and the bottom rough surface is Vaidhi. The only difference is in the sadhana bhakti one performs devotional activities by force of Guru,Sadhu, abnd Shastra. In raganuga stage they perform the same but spontaneously. A sadhana bhakta gets up for managalarati by hearing the ring of the bell of the spiritual master or by alarm clcok. In raganuga stage one gets up for mangalarati automatically, with out any force. In both cases one must rise for mangalarati. A sadhana bhakta may take a cold shower early morning feeling austerity. A raganuga bhakta takes cold shower feeling joyously. But pratah snana is a must for both sadhana bhakta and raganuga bhakta. Devotional principles are same for both sadhana bhakta and raganuga bhakta. The only difference is in the first case they are followed by force of Guru, Sadhu, and Shastra feeling austerity or tapasya, and in second case also according to Guru,Sadhu, and Shastra but voluntarily or spontaneously, with great pleasure. That is my understanding. Your humble servant, Bhadra Govinda Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2000 Report Share Posted September 20, 2000 > I don't think anyone could disagree. Moreover, I would submit that Srila > Prabhupada intended that ISKCON have dozens, if not hundreds, of such > souls by now (not just one). Does anyone think he intended that his > disciples remain on the kanistha platform decade after decase? That's not > to say that many devotees aren't very advanced, but that we all must make > great spiritual advancement by sadhana and surrender. That more of us > aren't on this platform has made a huge opening for Narayan Maharaj's > followers, if you believe that they're preying on ISKCON. If we had all > taken Srila Prabhupada's desire that we make (as he wrote me on > intitiation) "rapid advancement in Krishna consciousness," ISKCON would be > what he expected it to be. That is the point I was trying to make really. I feel personaly that the emphasis in ISKCON needs to be directed more to personal advancement in Krsna Consciousness rather than the old way of 'work now samadhi later'. This attitude has bread a class of devotees that would rather have 'near beer' parties, than absorb themselvs in Krsna Katha. The result is dope smoking and wife swapping at our communities. The cheapening of Krsna Consciousness, such as the GBC allowing gurus to marry their spiritual daughters, then gets overlooked, after all, some other gurus might get attracted to their disciples also. The whole movement becomes a farce, and a shadow of what it is supposed to be. I think the main problem is that senior devotees don't feel the need to visibly accept the shelter of their Godbrothers. Taking shelter is supposed to be there at all stages of our devotional lives. We understand that even in the spiritual world we come under the guidance of a senior gopi, who instructs us how to serve the Lord. There are so many examples of how senior devotees always see themselves as humble disciples, and seek out senior Godbrothers to serve. If the senior men are seen to be taking shelter, and constantly increasing their surrender in visible ways by doing humble services, and engaging wherever possible in Krsna Katha, instead of politics, the junior devotees would be inspired to follow suit. Our leadership crisis exists because the leaders appear actualy to be lording it over, instead of being examples of surrender. This is why I believe that prayer is the way to move forward, to pray to the Lord to reveal who the senior advanced devotees are, so that we may serve them. I was quite dissapointed that practicaly no one was into the prayer idea. I personaly beleive that an attitude of prayer is the only thing that will help us. If we are not self realised, then really our ideas amount to so much speculation. I hope I have not offended anyone. I will probably not stay on the conference for much longer, as I dont think I can contribute any more than this. Your servant Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2000 Report Share Posted September 20, 2000 At 07:02 PM 9/20/00 +0500, Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius) wrote: >This is why I believe that prayer is the way to move forward, to pray to the >Lord to reveal who the senior advanced devotees are, so that we may serve >them. I was quite dissapointed that practicaly no one was into the prayer >idea. I personaly beleive that an attitude of prayer is the only thing that >will help us. If we are not self realised, then really our ideas amount to >so much speculation. > >I hope I have not offended anyone. I will probably not stay on the >conference for much longer, as I dont think I can contribute any more than >this. Yikes! Please say it ain't so! The contributions you have made are so valuable that we would sorely miss your presence. If the problem is that reading the postings takes time you don't have, I cancertainly understand that; still, there would be a hole inthe conference if you were to leave. Your servant, Babhru das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2000 Report Share Posted September 20, 2000 Dear Samba Prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and His pure followers! Your contribution is much appreciated and valued in our GBC Restructure moderated and unmoderated conferences. Please do not be disheartened. We will have to discuss many more subjects and your input is essential to help us come with a broad picture and a mature understanding. I humbly beg you not to leave and to please take heart. We still do need you in these conferences. Your servant, Krsna-kirtana dasi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2000 Report Share Posted September 25, 2000 but you, yourself, wrote here that there are differences and quite strikingly different. They are both Krsna concious but greatly different. "Bhadra Govinda (das) JPS (Singapore - SG)" wrote: > > There is no difference between sadhana bhakti and raganuga bhakti. They are > both same just like the two sides of a leaf. The top smooth surface of the > leaf is raganuga and the bottom rough surface is Vaidhi. The only difference > is in the sadhana bhakti one performs devotional activities by force of > Guru,Sadhu, abnd Shastra. In raganuga stage they perform the same but > spontaneously. > > A sadhana bhakta gets up for managalarati by hearing the ring of the bell of > the spiritual master or by alarm clcok. In raganuga stage one gets up for > mangalarati automatically, with out any force. In both cases one must rise > for mangalarati. > > A sadhana bhakta may take a cold shower early morning feeling austerity. A > raganuga bhakta takes cold shower feeling joyously. But pratah snana is a > must for both sadhana bhakta and raganuga bhakta. > > Devotional principles are same for both sadhana bhakta and raganuga bhakta. > The only difference is in the first case they are followed by force of Guru, > Sadhu, and Shastra feeling austerity or tapasya, and in second case also > according to Guru,Sadhu, and Shastra but voluntarily or spontaneously, with > great pleasure. > > That is my understanding. > > Your humble servant, > Bhadra Govinda Das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2000 Report Share Posted September 25, 2000 > "Bhadra Govinda (das) JPS (Singapore - SG)" wrote: > > > > There is no difference between sadhana bhakti and raganuga bhakti. They > > are both same just like the two sides of a leaf. The top smooth surface > > of the leaf is raganuga and the bottom rough surface is Vaidhi. The only > > difference is in the sadhana bhakti one performs devotional activities > > by force of Guru,Sadhu, abnd Shastra. In raganuga stage they perform > > the same but spontaneously. Bijaya Kumar prabhu wrote: > but you, yourself, wrote here that there are differences and quite > strikingly different. They are both Krsna concious but greatly > different. Yes, I thought the differences were quite significant that's why I posted the text. The person in the raganuga stage will never fall down, and he has the 'distinct advantage' as Srila Prabhupada writes, of having the 'direct instruction' of the Lord. Your servant Samba das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2000 Report Share Posted September 27, 2000 > "Bhadra Govinda (das) JPS (Singapore - SG)" wrote: > > > > There is no difference between sadhana bhakti and raganuga bhakti. They > > are both same just like the two sides of a leaf. The top smooth surface > > of the leaf is raganuga and the bottom rough surface is Vaidhi. The only > > difference is in the sadhana bhakti one performs devotional activities > > by force of Guru,Sadhu, abnd Shastra. In raganuga stage they perform > > the same but spontaneously. Just a clarification about mistaking raganuga for ragatmika. Ragamika is spontaneous devotional service, the "raga" is "atmika" (of the soul). Raganuga, like vaidhi, is also according to guru, sadhu and sastra -- "anuga" (following in the footsteps) of "raga." yours in service, vaiyasaki dasa... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.