RE: Thread #6: Proposal by Ajamila Dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Narayana-rajana,

PAMHO, AGTSP.

 

To avoid misunderstanding, I want to clarify why I don't want to continue

this discussion in the GBC Restructure conference.

 

The issue at hand in the conference is the division of managerial

responsibilities according to certain varnashrama concepts. The managerial

groups available for assigning responsibility to include sannyasis, gurus, GBC

members, non-sannyasis/non-gurus, temple president, regional secretaries,

brahmans, kshatriyas, etc. These are the groups mentioned so far. Other

possible

groups can be identified if the author of a proposal feels it necessary. I have

made this clear in the instructions for making proposals.

 

What we are not discussing at present is who can be a member of any of these

groups. Currently, ISKCON has rules regulating the membership of these groups,

and at this time, they are not a topic of this conference. That is not to say

this issue won't be discussed in the future. That can't be predicted at this

point.

 

I encourage you to continue your participation in the conference. There can

be no sane discussion of anything, anywhere, at any time if each participant

predicates his or her input on their pet issue being dealt with above others.

If

you do not agree with the provisions of another's proposal, you are free to

make

your comments -- and above that, you should submit a proposal of your own that

can critiqued on it's individual merits.

 

When I read the offending line in Ajamila Prabhu's proposal, I understand he

has left the door open -- neither excluding women, nor stipulating that they

must be included. It is wholly unacceptable that you demand his proposal be

modified to meet your requirements or you, and those who share your point of

view, will not participate.

 

This conference will not be high jacked into a single-issue debate. Again,

if

you don't care for Ajamila's proposal, you are free to submit your own to the

assembled Vaishnavas.

 

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

Conference Moderator

 

[srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net], or

 

|

|Nayana-ranjana (AT) pamho (DOT) net [Nayana-ranjana (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

|Tuesday, September 19, 2000 8:03 AM

|Bhakti Vikasa Swami; Ajamila (das) ACBSP (Goloka Books - UK); Basu

|Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN); Srirama (das) ACBSP; Bhadra Balaram

|(das) JPS (Mayapur - IN); Braj Hari (das) JPS (Juhu, Mumbai - IN);

|Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN); Devakinandan (das) JUHU (Bombay - IN);

|Guru-Krsna Prabhu; Jivan Mukta prabhu

|Thread #6: Proposal by Ajamila Dasa

|

|

|This is a very serious question raised regarding Ajamila Prabhu's proposal

|which needs to be addressed immediately.

|

|> SPECIFIC DUTIES FOR THE GBC (Ajamila Prabhu's proposal)

|

|> 10. He/she can have any required number of assistant or Co GBCs

|

|I strongly object to the word 'she' in this proposal.

|

|We are trying to introduce Varnasrama in the GBC with respect to the gurus &

|sannyasis but we are not considering that it includes that GBC management is

|not for the female-bodied devotees.

|

|If we are so much emphasising why Prabhupada wanted to replace Tamal Krishna

|Goswami when he became a sannyasi, why are we not considering that Prabhupada

|told mother Yamuna that since she was a woman she could not become GBC. Is

this

|also not implementation of varnasrama in the GBC?

|

|[Note: Tamal Krsna Maharaja's recollection explains Prabhupada's

|ultimate decision NOT to put Yamuna as GBC. Why are there no other "evidences"

|from 1971-1977 of women being asked by Prabhupada to be GBC? Contradictory

|accounts from someone else don't prove anything.]

|

|Before assuming something, have we ever thought why did Srila Prabhupada not

|appoint one woman to post of GBC? Why were none of the 11 chosen in 1977

women?

|He had full opportunity. Why did he choose only men? Why?

|

|HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami and told me to make it clear to all the assembled

|devotees in this GBC Restructure conference that Varnasrama can never be

|established in the ISKCON leadership if:

|

|(1) Vaisnavis are given managerial positions in the GBC even if the GBC may be

|made up of only grhastas.

|

|(2) Grhastas on the GBC are divorcees.

|

|(3) If there is no immediately strong heavy-handed action taken against the

|belittling of Prabhupada going on in subtle ways.

|

|HG Devakinandan Prabhu (ISKCON Juhu Management Committee) has also read this

|proposal and instructed me to pass on this message to this conference:

|

|He feels that:

|

|(1) Vaisnavis should never be given managerial positions in leadership roles.

|(2) The IBC should not be involved in voting or any managerial decisions even

|once a year but it should only be consulted when there is great emergency

|managerial problem. Otherwise the restructuring will not be so effective.

|

|I personally also would tend to loose my complete interest in this conference

|if in the attempt to the restructure the GBC with respect to the sannyasis &

|gurus we end up introducing another big blunder by supporting the introduction

|of Vaisnavis in the GBC leadership positions. Then there is a chance that the

|new GBC comprising of grhastas will become worse than now because of the

|intermingling of the men & women at the top level which will then permeate

|throughout our Society in a very widespread manner. yad yad acarati sresthas.

|And the whole society will be doomed to sahajiyaism and apasiddhantavada.

|Atleast the sannyasis on the GBC now may not be very keen in introducing more

|women in the GBC (atleast I hope so) but when the grhastas come in, they may

|give a free license and start inducting Vaisnavis on the GBC, which will make

|it even worse than what it is now. So I wan't to know the views of the

|conference members on this issue and thus decide whether I should support this

|restructuring campaign.

|

|The present GBC is surely commiting this blunder (and that is one of the

|reasons it has become powerless) as pointed out by Paradhyeya Prabhu is his

|excellent essage to the GBC: Critical Analysis of "Women in ISKCON" GBC

|Resolutions, dated May 17, 2000. But they have not cared to even reply to

|Paradhyeya Prabhu's impeccable arguments what to speak of rescinding the

|resolution pertaining to women in ISKCON.

|

|At the GBC meeting two years ago (1997), a member, speaking for the inclusion

|of women on the GBC, said (as reported on Chakra): 'Don't see what Srila

|Prabhupada did, think what he would do now.' Isn't this statement very very

|odd, to say the least?

|

|It was very very surprising and disturbing to me that recently in their first

|meeting in Alachua on June 7th and 8th, the SMPDC members (most of them

|sannyasis like Jayapataka Swami, Gopal Krishna Goswami, Radhanatha Swami,

|Sivarama Swami {absent}, Bhakti Caru Swami {absent}) acknowledged the undue

|absence of any female members and accordingly invite nominations. (Since the

|meeting, Pranada d.d. was nominated and has agreed to sit on the SMPDC. Her

|nomination is waiting confirmation by the members).

|

|Are'nt all these actions making Varnasrama implementation almost impossible in

|our Society taking it towards sahajiyaism? Sometimes it is very very

|frustrating to be a witness to all this.

|

|And if the members of this conference or the new GBC does not the see all this

|as a breakage of Varnasrama principles in the leadership then I do not want to

|be a party to such restructural attempts.

|

|Here are some quotes from Srila Prabhupada where Prabhupada states very

clearly

|that leadership positions are not meant for female-bodied souls:

|

|SB 4.16.23 purp

|

|Thus it is most regrettable when a woman becomes the executive head instead

|of a lionlike king. In such a situation the people are considered very

|unfortunate.

|

|Letter to: Jayatirtha Calcutta 13 January, 1976

|

|"You may check that they are chanting and following the rules but do not

|get involved with their management. So far your suggestion that they sew

|clothes for the sannyasis Deities it is not possible. Sannyasis may have no

|connection with women."

|

|Letter to: Yamuna, Dinatarine Mayapur 21 February, 1976

|

|"On the whole larger scale is not to be attempted by women. Manage a small

|asram, but don't try bigger scale, then you require the help of men. Don't

|try manual exertion, then again there is mixture and that is not desired.

|Simply keep yourself aloof from men--chanting, many more times as possible,

|read books, worship the deity."

|

|Bhagavad-gita 1.21-22, London, July 18, 1973

|

|After describing the material energy, bhumir apo analo vayuh, earth, water,

|air, fire, this material.... This is also female, prakrti. Female means.... In

|India we have got little experience. The female is always controlled. Female

is

|never given the position of controller. Nowadays it is going on. Just like

|Indira Gandhi, she has given the position of controller. This is artificial.

In

|the history of India, greater India, Mahabharata, you will never find that a

|woman has been given a position of controller. No. It is not possible.

|We have to take things from the sastra.

|

|Evening Darshan; Hrishikesha, May 9, 1977

|

|Prabhupada: Who will give protection? Sab scientific.(Hindi) "So don't trust

|women and politician". This is Canakya Pandita....We have got Mahabharata,

|there is not a single instance...We had very, very great, qualified women, but

|they were in charge of state...? Very, very qualified women. You know. Na

|svatanratam arhati, striyah. For women there is no independence. The

|Manu-samhita. They must stay under father, under husband, or under elderly

|sons. Three stages. Kunti....

|

|If you want to revive real Indian civilization for the good of the whole human

|society, take to Krsna consciousness. You'll be happy. There is no doubt.

|(Hindi) Why do you try to undo something which is spoken by Bhagavan,

|Vyasadeva?...Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. We are not following mahajana,

but

|we are transgressing...."

|

|Morning Walk March 19, 1976, Mayapura

|

|Ramesvara: The women argue, Srila Prabhupada, that they can be given.... If

|they are given a good chance, they can make equal contribution in business,

|in science. So they are demanding equal rights, equal employment.

|Prabhupada: So why.... Why not equal rights that you stop producing

|children like the man? The man does not produce. Why you are obliged to

|produce?

|Ramesvara: That is their special qualification.

|Prabhupada: That is.... Similarly, everything is special. You are a

|different entity. You must have different engagements. That is your

|perfection.

|

|[Note: Prabhupada says very clearly that women have different engagements than

|men. Just because some Vaisnavis have a propensity for management doesn't mean

|they can act or demand accordingly. Lord Krsna says in BG, 18.47: "It is

better

|to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly,

|than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties

prescribed

|according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions."]

|

|Discussions with Hayagriva dasa about Auguste Comte

|

|Prabhupada: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided, she

|becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing, according to

|Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same level, so they

|should be given protection by men. In childhood the protection is from the

|father, in youthhood the protection is from the husband, and in old age the

|protection is from the grown-up sons. So they should never be given

|independence. They should be given protection, and their natural love for

|father or for husband or for children, then that propensity will grow very

|smoothly, and that will establish the relationship with woman and man very

|happy, and both of them will be able to execute their real function, spiritual

|life, by cooperation. The woman is known as his better half, so if she looks

|after the comfort of the man, a man is working and he is looking after the

|comfort, then both will be satisfied and their spiritual life will progress.

|Woman is meant for certain duties; man is meant for... Man is meant for hard

|working, and woman is meant for homely comfort, love. So both of them, if they

|are situated in their respective duties under proper training, then this

|combination of man and woman will help both of them to make progress in

|spiritual life.

|

|Thakura Bhaktivinoda in his commentary on Upadeshamrita

|

|"Householders should not closely associate with others' wives or prostitutes.

|They should not indulge in any association with the opposite sex other than

|with their wives according to religious scriptures."

|

|Basu Ghosh Prabhu

|

|"A women who acts as a leader in management position will necessarily have to

|CONSTANTLY interact with the men. And there is a chance that it may lead to

|illict connections, albeit not in every case. But in many."

|

|Guru-Krsna Prabhu

|

|On the one hand we have Vaisnavis pleading for protection; on the other,

|they will be vying for power in the form of a leadership position--a

guaranteed

|lose-lose situation. They'll not get protection by competing with their

|protectorates, because it "just ain't no fun" for a man to try to protect a

|contrary-minded subordinate. And they won't get power either, because the

power

|of a woman is her shyness.

|

|Ofcourse that does not mean that ksatriya ladies weren't involved in military

|arrangements where they assisted their male leaders? King Dasaratha's wife

was

|near enough to the battlefield to exercise the courage and ability to rescue

|her husband. A woman can do it only as a service to help her husband managing

|service, in a direct way she should not.

|

|Though it may not pertain directly to our discussion, there are quotes from

|Prabhupada which are emphatic that women in the normal course should not also

|become acaryas or diksha-gurus:

|

|SB 4.12.32

|

|"Suniti, however, being a woman, and specifically his mother, could not

|become Dhruva Maharaja's diksa-guru."

|

|"t is not that woman cannot be acarya. Generally, they do not become.

|In very special case. (From transcript of original tape of SP dictating

|BGAII intro. 660219BG.NY)

|

|Ofcourse there can always be some rare exceptions to this rule like in our

|parampara we see great great Vaisnavis like Jahnava Devi, Hemalata Thakurani,

|Gangamata Goswami taking on the role of acaryas and gurus who had many male

|disciples.

|

|Furthur it is clear from the quotes below that Prabhupada surely did want to

|implement the varnasrama dharma in a complete manner gradually & slowly by

|separating the intermingling of the men & women devotees in our society. So

how

|can we promote it in our leadership i.e the GBC body? Dear conference members,

|please answer this question and don't evade it.

|

|"Sometimes jealous persons criticize the Krishna consciousness movement

because

|it engages equally both boys and girls in distrubuting love of Godhead. Not

|knowing that boys and girls in countries like Europe and America mix very

|freely, these fools and rascals criticize the boys and girls in Krishna

|consciousness for intermingling. But these rascals should consider that one

|cannot suddenly change a community's social customs." (Cc. Adi 7.31-32,

|Purport)

|

|"In our society the girls and boys mix, intermingle together and this is

|practically impossible to stop because you Western people are accustomed to

|this habit. Sometimes my Godbrothers critize me for intermingling of girls and

|boys....But there is no way out of it--you boys and girls will mix even if I

|say....they cannot avoid it. They sit separately in the temple and then

outside

|mix again. So this was not possible from the beginning...." (Letter to Govinda

|dasi, 30 April, 1974)

|

|"But because in your country there is no distinction between boys and girls,

or

|man and women, they can freely mix without any restriction, I did not

|(therefore) give much stricture on this point because by such stricture they

|might be annoyed, and whatever Krishna Consciousness they are trying to

develop

|might be checked." (Letter to Satvarupa, 68-07-12)

|

|Vaisnava dasabhas

|Nayana-ranjana das

[Guest guest]

So Nayanaranjana Prabhu, are you suggesting that, there should be no

participants on this conference who are women? If there should be no women

on SMPDC, and GBC, by the same logic then no women as TPs and even on this

conference? Also there should be no Sannyasis, Grihasthas who are above 50,

divorcees in this discussion. That is the signal I am getting by your

comment.

 

Or even if they participate, in this conference, after restructuring the

society, there should be no women, Sannyasis, Grihasthas above 50, divorcees

etc, in any management position at any level big or small. Is this what you

are proposing.

 

Please clarify.

 

I am 100% sure, that now devotees who are waving placards of restructure GBC

and ISKCON according to Varnasrama will throw away their placards, and start

with new placards, that we must restructure according to Bhagavata

principles.

 

Wait and see.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Das.