RE: Prabhupada's preaching

[Guest guest]

Dear Babhru Prabhu,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and his

pure followers!

 

> >> Sri Rama responded:

> >> So maybe I was insincere, or perhaps Krishna just chose not to help

> >> me figure this out. I'll probably never know unless I ask him face to

> >> face, should I ever be that fortunate. But in a practical sense, in

> >> relation to this question, it doesn't really matter. Devotees most

> >> certainly do fall into this situation where they must choose to follow

> >> or not follow what may or may not be the "authorized direction."

 

> >Krsna-kirana answered:

> >Do you think Srila Prabhupada was not sincere because he didn't fit in

> >the Gaudiya Math? You "spent 8 years praying for indication on how you

> >should fit in to the Hare Krsna Movement", did He not do that too?

> >Does that mean he was not following His authority?...

 

Babhru Prabhu replied:

> But Srila Prabhupada was involved with the Gaudiya Math for many years

> (decades!).

 

You may call that "involved" but He personally did not "fit" to take Sri

Rama's expression. He was an outsider to the Gaudiya Math institution even

though he was always helping one way or another, as Sri Rama Prabhu has also

been doing. He was feeling that to give up his family and follow his

spiritual master's order to go and preach would simply not be fair. He met

his guru 12 times only and he was about 40 years old when he started his

first 'Back to Godhead magazine' (not before), and that was not with the

Gaudiya Math. He never received any support from his Godbrothers.

 

This BTG magazine was his personal service to his guru-maharaj as somebody

would nowadays open a web site to preach Krsna consciousness and contact a

maximum number of people at once.

 

It was only when he was around 56 years old, when his business completely

failed and he went bankrupt, that he really dedicated himself to his

Guru-maharaj's mission and to preaching with his new Movement in Jhansi "The

league of devotees". That was also not with the Gaudiya Math.

 

It took him 40 years from the first day he received his Guru-maharaj's

instruction till the day he decided to leave India to go and preach in

English speaking countries and he did it because Krsna pushed him in that

way and personally removed all the obstacles, one by one, in due course of

time. He didn't jump prematurely following his sannyasi Godbrothers, nor did

he depend on his authority the Gaudiya Math, he simply followed his

guru-maharaj's instructions and Krsna's personal guidance and plan. Isn't

that true?

 

> Before leaving India, he worked with several of his godbrothers

> inside their missions. He tried many times to get support from Gaudiya

> Math itself (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's mission) for his work, not

> because he needed their money (although it wouldn't have hurt to have it),

> but because it was, after all, his spiritual master's mission. Even after

> coming to America, he repeatedly tried to draw his godbrothers out of

> their situations in the dhamas to help spread Krishna consciousness all

> over the world. He did this not because he wanted to control them (there's

> no real evidence for such an idea) but because there was plenty of room in

> the world for many powerful preachers. There still is.

 

Yes, but you see, he was asking for humble cooperation and his godbrothers

were not ready for that. They were only concern with their own projects.

We have also desperately been trying to get support from our leaders during

the past 20 or 30 years and have not been successful in our attempt.

 

I personally can draw a parallel with most of ISKCON GBCs' behavior in

relation to their Godbrothers and Godsisters. So in this situation, it seems

to me that it is appropriate to do our own preaching work as Srila

Prabhupada did, without waiting for our GBC Godbrothers to humbly cooperate.

Srila Prabhupada had only one disciple when he left India in 1965. He was 69

years old.

 

> We're all trying to make this institution work. But we need a better

> reason for doing so than sentiment. A better reason is that Srila

> Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada felt that well-organized

> preaching institutions were helpful for systematically propagating krishna

> consciousness in the modern world. But ultimately, if we're not

> successful, each of us has to decide how best to serve Srila Prabhupada.

> We have to become Krishna conscious and help many others gain access to

> this perfection. If we can reform ISKCON so it is the dynamic instrument

> for effecting this, as Srila Prabhupada intended, so much the better.

> Babhru das

 

Yes! So much better, but that requires some genuine repentance and the

proper mood of humble cooperation from the GBC Body that we have not really

seen so far.

 

I guess, as Samba Prabhu would say, we can only pray. And if the Lord is

pleased, He will kindly inspire the GBC members not to follow the Gaudiya

Math bad example but instead follow up their various letters of apology with

tangible actions, showing their deep commitment to listen and cooperate in a

humble mood with their serious and dedicated Godbrothers and Godsisters and

humbly facilitate their Godbrothers' services instead of only thinking about

their own preaching service.

 

This is actually the mood of the dearest gopis; they do not want to be

recognized for their outstanding service, they want to bring the other gopis

at Krsna'lotus feet for His personal enjoyment. This is the mood of

selflessness, pure devotion, and genuine humility that would inspire

devotees to dedicate themselves again to ISKCON "well-organized preaching

institution" as you said.

 

In the meantime I do think Krsna is personally guiding all the sincere

devotees who are still chanting 16 rounds trying to avoid offenses,

following the 4 principles, studying Srila Prabhuypada's books and following

his teaching as far as possible in their life.

 

We are hoping against all hope that the GBC Body will finally step down a

little bit to listen to what ISKCON devotees have to say and act

accordingly. At least I am still hoping, but I am not waiting for them, to

start organizing my life according to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I am

convinced that Krsna is personally taking care of me and removing all the

obstacles one by one as He did for my spiritual master.

 

Thank you for your words of encouragement concerning serving Srila

Prabhupada's mission in any case and in any condition. That was much

appreciated and welcome.

 

Your servant,

Krsna-kirtana dasi.

[Guest guest]

well said Prabhu.

 

"Krsna Kirtana (dd) ACBSP (F)" wrote:

>

> Dear Babhru Prabhu,

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and his

> pure followers!

>

> > >> Sri Rama responded:

> > >> So maybe I was insincere, or perhaps Krishna just chose not to help

> > >> me figure this out. I'll probably never know unless I ask him face to

> > >> face, should I ever be that fortunate. But in a practical sense, in

> > >> relation to this question, it doesn't really matter. Devotees most

> > >> certainly do fall into this situation where they must choose to follow

> > >> or not follow what may or may not be the "authorized direction."

>

> > >Krsna-kirana answered:

> > >Do you think Srila Prabhupada was not sincere because he didn't fit in

> > >the Gaudiya Math? You "spent 8 years praying for indication on how you

> > >should fit in to the Hare Krsna Movement", did He not do that too?

> > >Does that mean he was not following His authority?...

>

> Babhru Prabhu replied:

> > But Srila Prabhupada was involved with the Gaudiya Math for many years

> > (decades!).

>

> You may call that "involved" but He personally did not "fit" to take Sri

> Rama's expression. He was an outsider to the Gaudiya Math institution even

> though he was always helping one way or another, as Sri Rama Prabhu has also

> been doing. He was feeling that to give up his family and follow his

> spiritual master's order to go and preach would simply not be fair. He met

> his guru 12 times only and he was about 40 years old when he started his

> first 'Back to Godhead magazine' (not before), and that was not with the

> Gaudiya Math. He never received any support from his Godbrothers.

>

> This BTG magazine was his personal service to his guru-maharaj as somebody

> would nowadays open a web site to preach Krsna consciousness and contact a

> maximum number of people at once.

>

> It was only when he was around 56 years old, when his business completely

> failed and he went bankrupt, that he really dedicated himself to his

> Guru-maharaj's mission and to preaching with his new Movement in Jhansi "The

> league of devotees". That was also not with the Gaudiya Math.

>

> It took him 40 years from the first day he received his Guru-maharaj's

> instruction till the day he decided to leave India to go and preach in

> English speaking countries and he did it because Krsna pushed him in that

> way and personally removed all the obstacles, one by one, in due course of

> time. He didn't jump prematurely following his sannyasi Godbrothers, nor did

> he depend on his authority the Gaudiya Math, he simply followed his

> guru-maharaj's instructions and Krsna's personal guidance and plan. Isn't

> that true?

>

> > Before leaving India, he worked with several of his godbrothers

> > inside their missions. He tried many times to get support from Gaudiya

> > Math itself (Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati's mission) for his work, not

> > because he needed their money (although it wouldn't have hurt to have it),

> > but because it was, after all, his spiritual master's mission. Even after

> > coming to America, he repeatedly tried to draw his godbrothers out of

> > their situations in the dhamas to help spread Krishna consciousness all

> > over the world. He did this not because he wanted to control them (there's

> > no real evidence for such an idea) but because there was plenty of room in

> > the world for many powerful preachers. There still is.

>

> Yes, but you see, he was asking for humble cooperation and his godbrothers

> were not ready for that. They were only concern with their own projects.

> We have also desperately been trying to get support from our leaders during

> the past 20 or 30 years and have not been successful in our attempt.

>

> I personally can draw a parallel with most of ISKCON GBCs' behavior in

> relation to their Godbrothers and Godsisters. So in this situation, it seems

> to me that it is appropriate to do our own preaching work as Srila

> Prabhupada did, without waiting for our GBC Godbrothers to humbly cooperate.

> Srila Prabhupada had only one disciple when he left India in 1965. He was 69

> years old.

>

> > We're all trying to make this institution work. But we need a better

> > reason for doing so than sentiment. A better reason is that Srila

> > Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada felt that well-organized

> > preaching institutions were helpful for systematically propagating krishna

> > consciousness in the modern world. But ultimately, if we're not

> > successful, each of us has to decide how best to serve Srila Prabhupada.

> > We have to become Krishna conscious and help many others gain access to

> > this perfection. If we can reform ISKCON so it is the dynamic instrument

> > for effecting this, as Srila Prabhupada intended, so much the better.

> > Babhru das

>

> Yes! So much better, but that requires some genuine repentance and the

> proper mood of humble cooperation from the GBC Body that we have not really

> seen so far.

>

> I guess, as Samba Prabhu would say, we can only pray. And if the Lord is

> pleased, He will kindly inspire the GBC members not to follow the Gaudiya

> Math bad example but instead follow up their various letters of apology with

> tangible actions, showing their deep commitment to listen and cooperate in a

> humble mood with their serious and dedicated Godbrothers and Godsisters and

> humbly facilitate their Godbrothers' services instead of only thinking about

> their own preaching service.

>

> This is actually the mood of the dearest gopis; they do not want to be

> recognized for their outstanding service, they want to bring the other gopis

> at Krsna'lotus feet for His personal enjoyment. This is the mood of

> selflessness, pure devotion, and genuine humility that would inspire

> devotees to dedicate themselves again to ISKCON "well-organized preaching

> institution" as you said.

>

> In the meantime I do think Krsna is personally guiding all the sincere

> devotees who are still chanting 16 rounds trying to avoid offenses,

> following the 4 principles, studying Srila Prabhuypada's books and following

> his teaching as far as possible in their life.

>

> We are hoping against all hope that the GBC Body will finally step down a

> little bit to listen to what ISKCON devotees have to say and act

> accordingly. At least I am still hoping, but I am not waiting for them, to

> start organizing my life according to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I am

> convinced that Krsna is personally taking care of me and removing all the

> obstacles one by one as He did for my spiritual master.

>

> Thank you for your words of encouragement concerning serving Srila

> Prabhupada's mission in any case and in any condition. That was much

> appreciated and welcome.

>

> Your servant,

> Krsna-kirtana dasi.

[Guest guest]

At 11:16 AM 9/21/00 +0200, you wrote:

 

>> >Krsna-kirana answered:

>> >Do you think Srila Prabhupada was not sincere because he didn't fit in

>> >the Gaudiya Math? You "spent 8 years praying for indication on how you

>> >should fit in to the Hare Krsna Movement", did He not do that too?

>> >Does that mean he was not following His authority?...

>

>Babhru Prabhu replied:

>> But Srila Prabhupada was involved with the Gaudiya Math for many years

>> (decades!).

>

>You may call that "involved" but He personally did not "fit" to take Sri

>Rama's expression. He was an outsider to the Gaudiya Math institution even

>though he was always helping one way or another, as Sri Rama Prabhu has also

>been doing. He was feeling that to give up his family and follow his

>spiritual master's order to go and preach would simply not be fair. He met

>his guru 12 times only and he was about 40 years old when he started his

>first 'Back to Godhead magazine' (not before), and that was not with the

>Gaudiya Math. He never received any support from his Godbrothers.

 

If we go beyond the "authorizedbiography" written by Satsvarupa Maharaj,

we find that Srila Prabhupada helped with Gaudiya Math centers in several

places at different times. Becuase of his role in helping establish the

Bombay center, some of his godbrothers suggested that he become involved in

running it. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was not interested in rushing

anything like this, saying, "In due time, he'll do what is necessary." I

think it may be an exaggeration to say that he *never* received *any*

support of any kind from his godbrothers.

 

>Yes, but you see, he was asking for humble cooperation and his godbrothers

>were not ready for that. They were only concern with their own projects.

>We have also desperately been trying to get support from our leaders during

>the past 20 or 30 years and have not been successful in our attempt.

 

Actually, I think thorough inspection would show that he was actually

inviting them, after showing that it was possible, to all work together to

flood the world with Krishna consciousness. Especially early on, there's no

evidence that he intended them (some of whom he considered senior in their

association with BSS's mission) to subordinate themselves to him (which is

the implied definition of "cooperation" in terms of the GBC's call for

cooperation).

 

>I personally can draw a parallel with most of ISKCON GBCs' behavior in

>relation to their Godbrothers and Godsisters. So in this situation, it seems

>to me that it is appropriate to do our own preaching work as Srila

>Prabhupada did, without waiting for our GBC Godbrothers to humbly cooperate.

>Srila Prabhupada had only one disciple when he left India in 1965. He was 69

>years old.

 

Oh, I agree. Please don't misunderstand the post to which this is

responding. I did not mean to suggest that everyone has to just accept

whatever the GBC doles out. It's no secret to many of these readers that I

have very little faith in the GBC, and I'm participating in thses

discussions because I have some hope, and because Srila Prabhupada

personally asked me not to go away. I do plenty of service at our local

ISKCON center because I live very nearby, I'm attached to Sri Sri

Radha-Giridhari and to Giri-govardhana, because the devotees are able to

tolerate me, and to set an example that temples should be supported in

different ways by local householder devotees. If it were otherwise, I'd

miss my service to Giri-govardhana and I'd have to find another activity to

replace the boost I get from giving classes at the temple (it wouldn't be

hard--they're very sparsely attended), but my sadhana and my determination

for spiritual progress would not suffer even a little. Last year, I came

very close to getting a full-time teaching job on the Big Island of Hawaii.

When it looked as though I may actually get the job, several temple

devotees lamented that I would live where there's no temple. I explained

that this may be the best thing for me, since the island would be a great

preaching field. My wife and I lived on that island for a couple of years

in the '70s. We had a daily program at our home, often had guests for

prasadam and kirtans, and three festivals each year, attended by anywhere

from 50-80 devotees and guests. One year the brahmacaris from the ISKCON

farm came to our house for Govardhana-puja.

 

I'm sort of stuck here due to circumstances. I have no doubt that most of

us are fully empowered by Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai and Srila Prabhupada to help

others become more Krishna conscious whereever we are. If we can do it

within ISKCON, how wonderful! If ISKCON's leaders can't reform the

institution before it loses its relevance, that's certainly a shame for all

of us. But it would not be the end of the world or of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's

mission.

 

>Yes! So much better, but that requires some genuine repentance and the

>proper mood of humble cooperation from the GBC Body that we have not really

>seen so far.

>

>I guess, as Samba Prabhu would say, we can only pray. And if the Lord is

>pleased, He will kindly inspire the GBC members not to follow the Gaudiya

>Math bad example but instead follow up their various letters of apology with

>tangible actions, showing their deep commitment to listen and cooperate in a

>humble mood with their serious and dedicated Godbrothers and Godsisters and

>humbly facilitate their Godbrothers' services instead of only thinking about

>their own preaching service.

 

>We are hoping against all hope that the GBC Body will finally step down a

>little bit to listen to what ISKCON devotees have to say and act

>accordingly. At least I am still hoping, but I am not waiting for them, to

>start organizing my life according to Srila Prabhupada's instructions. I am

>convinced that Krsna is personally taking care of me and removing all the

>obstacles one by one as He did for my spiritual master.

 

I'm with you here 100%. I'm hoping, willing to help, but my faith is in the

order of my spiritual master. Because he personally requested, I'm likely

to keep trying beyond the point where it makes much sense.

 

Babhru das