Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 > > > For those who feel Manu Samhita and Srimad Bhagavatam go hand-in-hand, I > > > suggest reading the Manu Samhita chapter on atonement and comparing it > > > with the words we recite every morning, "yani kani capa-pani, > > > brahma-hatya dikani ca." > > > > Let's take a look on a situation, when one person murders someone. > > He may understand what have he done and go around Tulasi-devi > > thousand times, but shall we say "Look what a nice devotee, let > > him join the sankirtana party to be fully purified"? No, despite > > of his spiritual progress, he is still eligible for punishment, > > for the purpose of keeping the society stable and following the laws. > > You have avoided Sri Ram Prabhu's point. Can you please give me ONE > QUOTATION from Manu Samhita where Sri Manu Rishi admits that someone may be > purified by some anga of bhakti (any one), but still has to undergo > punishment only for the purpose of "keeping the society stable and following > the laws." No. You will not find it there. So your argument is a smoke > screen. Please at least first admit that his point is valid. Then you can > attempt to make your additional point based upon the bhakti sastras. > This text was not written by me, although it seems Bhakta Rupa Prabhu thinks I did. The above comments seem to be speaking to themselves rather than actually addressing the concerns raised. Sri Rama Prabhu seems to be pointing out that circumambulating tulsi and the procedures of attonement mentioned in Manu-samhita are not on the same level. Granted, this is true. However, I personally don't think he's portrayed Manu-samhita in a balanced way. Manu-samhita is not exclusively about attonement or karma-kanda. I've already provided relevant references that demostrate this. Sri Rama Prabhu's statement might lead the uninformed reader to conclude that Manu-samhita is only about attonement and nothing else. Bhakta Oleg seems to be objecting to simply letting somone who has done something very bad (like a child-molester) circumambulate Tulsi as his sole method of attonement. I do know of a case like this, where someone who actually did molest a child, after being discovered, was simply told to keep engaging in devotional service. (The parents then left ISKCON for good.) Let's rephrase his question: "If the process of devotional service is sufficient attonement, then why doesn't the CPO simply let offenders off with a few paces around Tulasi devi?" Bhakta Rupa Prabhu's comment isn't very relevant to either Sri Rama Prabhu's remark or Bhakta Oleg's remark, who never makes the claim BRP is attacking. Your servant, Krishna-kirti das (HDG) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2000 Report Share Posted November 9, 2000 |Sri Rama Prabhu seems to be pointing out that circumambulating tulsi and the |procedures of attonement mentioned in Manu-samhita are not on the same |level. Granted, this is true. However, I personally don't think he's |portrayed Manu-samhita in a balanced way. Manu-samhita is not exclusively |about attonement or karma-kanda. I've already provided relevant references |that demostrate this. Sri Rama Prabhu's statement might lead the uninformed |reader to conclude that Manu-samhita is only about attonement and nothing |else. My point was, simply stated, principles from Srimad Bhagavatam and Manu Samhita are not interchangeable. They address different audiences, and have different content, approaches, and purposes. If we get them mixed up, we will not be able to understand the relevancy of either. As you have confirmed, they on not on the same level. The eighteen Puranas are also not on the same level -- six are for those in the mode of ignorance, six for passion, and six for goodness. While all sastra is ultimately meant to bring everyone to Krishna as soon as possible, for preaching and management, their purposes and approaches are very much different. If any of these sastras are to be of use to us, we must have the discrimination to understand the role of each. This is the balanced portrayal. In fact, to claim otherwise is similar to saying that the social roles of brahmanas, kshatriya, vaishyas, and sudras are all the same because they come from Krishna and are meant for our ultimate spiritual benefit. Internally, that is true -- if we all follow our duties, that will help us go back to Godhead at the earliest possible moment. But externally, in this world, we recognize the differences too. While I believe it is true on an absolute level that "The aims of Manu Samhita and Srimad-Bhagavatam are one and the same" (just as the uttama-adhikari sees everyone engaged in Krishna's service), one should not try to logically extend that to claim they should be applied equally without discrimination as to their relevancy or appropriateness. Didn't I mention that the section on atonement was a single chapter? As for Bhakta Oleg's point, this is the reason ISKCON, at this point in its development, should not be in the justice business. Suspected child abusers should be immediately turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution and punishment. While they suffer in prison, they can make spiritual progress by chanting Hare Krishna. ys SRd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 > As for Bhakta Oleg's point, this is the reason ISKCON, at this point in > its development, should not be in the justice business. Suspected child > abusers should be immediately turned over to the civil authorities for > prosecution and punishment. While they suffer in prison, they can make > spiritual progress by chanting Hare Krishna. Agreed. But in regard to future varnasrama colleges, it is one of their duties to teach sad-dharma-sastras, especially to future brahmans and ksatriyas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 Agreed Bijaya Kumara das "Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote: > > |Sri Rama Prabhu seems to be pointing out that circumambulating tulsi and the > |procedures of attonement mentioned in Manu-samhita are not on the same > |level. Granted, this is true. However, I personally don't think he's > |portrayed Manu-samhita in a balanced way. Manu-samhita is not exclusively > |about attonement or karma-kanda. I've already provided relevant references > |that demostrate this. Sri Rama Prabhu's statement might lead the uninformed > |reader to conclude that Manu-samhita is only about attonement and nothing > |else. > > My point was, simply stated, principles from Srimad Bhagavatam and Manu Samhita > are not interchangeable. They address different audiences, and have different > content, approaches, and purposes. If we get them mixed up, we will not be able > to understand the relevancy of either. > > As you have confirmed, they on not on the same level. The eighteen Puranas are > also not on the same level -- six are for those in the mode of ignorance, six > for passion, and six for goodness. While all sastra is ultimately meant to > bring > everyone to Krishna as soon as possible, for preaching and management, their > purposes and approaches are very much different. If any of these sastras are to > be of use to us, we must have the discrimination to understand the role of > each. > > This is the balanced portrayal. In fact, to claim otherwise is similar to > saying > that the social roles of brahmanas, kshatriya, vaishyas, and sudras are all the > same because they come from Krishna and are meant for our ultimate spiritual > benefit. Internally, that is true -- if we all follow our duties, that will > help > us go back to Godhead at the earliest possible moment. But externally, in this > world, we recognize the differences too. > > While I believe it is true on an absolute level that "The aims of Manu Samhita > and Srimad-Bhagavatam are one and the same" (just as the uttama-adhikari sees > everyone engaged in Krishna's service), one should not try to logically extend > that to claim they should be applied equally without discrimination as to their > relevancy or appropriateness. > > Didn't I mention that the section on atonement was a single chapter? > > As for Bhakta Oleg's point, this is the reason ISKCON, at this point in its > development, should not be in the justice business. Suspected child abusers > should be immediately turned over to the civil authorities for prosecution and > punishment. While they suffer in prison, they can make spiritual progress by > chanting Hare Krishna. > > ys > SRd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 10, 2000 Report Share Posted November 10, 2000 Very nice points, Sri Ram Prabhu. Just one minor comment: > As you have confirmed, they on not on the same level. The eighteen Puranas > are also not on the same level -- six are for those in the mode of > ignorance, six for passion, and six for goodness. While all sastra is > ultimately meant to bring > everyone to Krishna as soon as possible, for preaching and management, > their purposes and approaches are very much different. You say, "as soon as possible". Certainly all Vedic paths are meant to bring everyone to some manifestation of Krishna eventually, but some sastras only give the beginning parts of the path, which involve leading the jivas which follow them farther from Krishna so they can get kicked as soon as possible. To complete the vedic path one has to come to a sufficiently high realization to be able to reject that sastra and accept different ones, perhaps many times over. Someone who is chanting the holy name and has received vaisnava diksa is understood to have already performed all karma kandiya vedic processes. I am simply incredulous to hear members of this conference advising those who are chanting and initiated to carefully study and apply in their personal lives sastras which are DESIGNED to lead the follower farther from Krishna. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur very clearly has described that to progress further these sastras must be rejected as inapplicable. It is an offense to the holy name to chant and at the same time accept the processes recommended in these other sastras as having any independent value. They may, however, be studied by qualified preachers in order to teach those who are not prepared to chant and who are not initiated. Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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