Thread #8 - Proposal by Bhaktarupa Das

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>

> Samba prabhu wrote:

>

> > Put the

> > management of ISKCON into the hands of ksatria householders. The ISKCON

> > temples, run by Ksatria temple presidents, provide places for the gurus

> > to preach. If the gurus have no say in how the temples are managed,

> > other than pointing out if there is some kind of discrepancy in terms of

> > dharmic or sastric teaching, then so many problems are solved.

>

Krishna Dharma prabhu wrote:

> I am a little worried that we do not have a very full grasp of just how

> varnashrama dharma works.

 

Yes this is definately hampering this discussion. It is almost impossible to

really figure out how to implement varnasrama when we dont fully understand

the principles. This conference can do some of this, but really we should

have been better informed at the outset. However, here we are.

 

A.S.Altekar's 'State and

> Government in Ancient India')

 

I did see this book once in India. But I would not like to accept it as an

authority. Even if it is correct, it may not reflect the total sphere of the

ksatriya dharma. However I have posted a few quotes here, that infer that

Ksatriyas occur everywhere. They are not only powerful monarchs, they occur

in human society commonly and they need to be trained.

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 6: Chapter Seven, Text 13 :PURPORT

 

A human civilization is advanced when its people follow the catur-varnya

system, the system of four orders of life. There must be ideal, first-class

men to act as advisors, second-class men to act as administrators,

third-class men to produce food and protect cows, and fourth-class men who

obey the three higher classes of society.

 

*[second-class men to act as administrators]

 

Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972

 

But in other countries they have been made all sudras. How they can take up

ksatriya spirit? That is not possible. So according to this varnasrama,

there must be training. Some classes of men must be trained as nice

brahmanas. Some people must be trained as nice ksatriyas. Some people must

be trained as nice vaisyas. And sudra does not require any... Everyone is

sudra. Janmana jayate sudra. By birth, everyone is sudra. Samskarad bhaved

dvijah. By training, one becomes vaisya, one becomes ksatriya, one becomes

brahmana.

 

Room Conversation London, September 2, 1973

Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning.

That it is the ksatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brahmana,

whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical

man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's

cheating.

 

Room Conversation Montreal, July 16, 1968

So even in India still, there is no difficulty for draftboard. There is a

class, ksatriya; they will be very glad to be recruited as soldier. They are

very strong. Jat. They are called jat, Gurkha. They don't like any other

occupation. Fighting they like. The Sikhs. The Sikhs they are jat class, and

the Gurkha, oh, the whole British Empire was extended with the help of the

Sikhs and the Gurkhas. The Britishers took these Gurkhas and the Sikhs to

Burma, to Messopotamia.

 

So they have got respectable terms. Just like a brahmana is addressed as

pandita maharaja. A ksatriya is addressed thakura saheb, thakur. And a

merchant is addressed: sethji. And the laborer class addressed as

chouddhari, means leader. In this way everyone has got respectable position.

Why? Because the test of their success was one, Visnu. Success... Svakarmana

tam abhyarcya siddhim labhate param. Whatever your occupation may be, that

doesn't matter. But if you worship the Supreme Lord by your occupation, then

you are successful.

 

The florist supplies flower to the temple. The potter supplies pots to the

temple. The priest chants mantra in the temple. The ksatriyas, they protect

the temple. He supplies the expenditure of the temple.

 

Morning Walk

"Varnasrama College"

 

Vrndavana, March 14, 1974

 

 

Hrdayananda: Say, for example, someone was a, a ksatriya by inclination, or

a...?

Prabhupada: No, inclination can be changed also. If one has got little ad...

But we should take little advantage of the inclination. Not that... That is

to be decided by the... Inclination or no inclination, we can... That will

be done. That is not very difficult. This is a most important item. Because

people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by the

so-called leaders. Therefore varnasrama college is required. Hare Krsna.

 

Hrdayananda: And there should... Should there be any material subject

matters taught like in gurukula?

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like material subject matter, ksatriya, or the

brahmanas, ksatriya, as they are described in the Bhagavad-gita, what are

the symptoms of brahmana, what is the symptoms of ksatriya. The ksatriyas

should be taught how to fight also. There will be military training. There

will be training how to kill.

Hrdayananda: Oh.

 

The first thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they

must be properly fed so become very stout and strong. Cows will supply milk,

and man will work hard, without being suffered by dysentery. He must work

hard. Any capacity. Work as a teacher or work as a ksatriya, work as a

ploughman. Or work as general assistant. He must work. Everyone should be

employed. And his employment will be provided from any of these groups,

according to his capacity. Either as a brahmana, or as a ksatriya, or as a

vaisya, or as a sudra.

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the

ksatriyas... Just like ksatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So

practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he

likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hrdayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are ksatriyas,

they can, they're allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima,

Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima.

Not others. So if the ksatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed

on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal.

 

Prabhupada: But if some of the ksatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is

our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that."

That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill.

You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to

kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the ksatriya, a thief, a rogue,

unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him.

Bas. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others

will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No

mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred

years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any

more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more

stealing.

 

Hrdayananda: Those who cannot preach.

Prabhupada: Yes. Those who are less educated, not very much expert in

preaching, they must be acting as ksatriya or vaisya, or as sudra.

 

Visnujana: One good example in New Vrndavana, they're actually doing that.

They're training ksatriyas, they're training...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. That was the very beginning...

 

> Kshatriyas manage states, countries and empires -- not educational

> institutions.

 

I think it is clear from a careful reading of the above, that kstriyas are

amongst us now, and to really achieve their full potential they need to be

trained in our varnasrama colleges.

 

In India often some confusion arises because some people are considered

ksatriya by caste in a similar way to the fact that Prahlad Maharaja is

considered a demon.

 

These are run by brahmanas. Sure, these institutions may

> have buildings and other assets, but it does not require a powerful

> warrior to run them.

 

In the quotes above, Prabhupada points out that the ksatriyas must learn to

fight *also*. But in other circumstances they would administer. They upheld

the law, and would punish thieves by cutting their hands. In so many aspects

of everyday life the 'guts' of the Ksatriya spirit are required.

 

ISKCON is an educational institution -- it is not a

> state within a state. We do not want our leaders, the GBC men, taking up

> arms and marching out into battle, a prime duty of kshatriyas.

 

I read in one place that Ksatrias were awarded land by the King, on the

provision that if required they would fight. But until the fight came they

would perform vaisya activity of farming. Doing research for Mayapur Project

I discovered that actualy almost all the varnas farmed, they all had some

land (except the sudras), after all we all have to eat.

 

Nor do we

> want them to be looking to control territories and men, a principal

> feature of a kshatriya's nature.

 

But that is precisely where they fit in. Administering those assets.

 

> Forgive me prabhu, but the suggestion that a Temple President should be a

> kshatriya seems absurd to me.

 

A succesful Temple president is already a ksatria. He administers the

temple, chastises the lazies, provides for the devotees, and if necesary

defends the devotees. It is very much a ksatriya role. I am sure if he had

to he would fight also, he has guts. I can see this in many temple

presidents. Most brahmanas will tremble in the basement! If a president is

not a chastiser, he will be walked all over.

 

 

> That then is our ISKCON business, as I see it. We should simply focus on

> learning the sastra and becoming adept teachers.

 

Again in the quotes I provided we can see that is a fact, we have to teach.

We have to become so expert that we can teach people with ksatriya nature,

what is ksatriya dharma, so that they can take that very important role of

administering in ISKCON, and also eventualy outside of ISKCON, so that the

Brahmanas can be protected, and teach others. In Bhagavad Gita 2.32 Purport:

"The Ksatriyas duty is to protect the citizens from all kinds of

difficulties, and for that reason he has to apply violence in suitable cases

for law and order..." BG 18.43 Translation: Heroism, power, determination,

resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the

natural qualities of work for the ksatriyas.

 

Inject Krishna

> consciousness into society. Gradually varnashrama may unfold, and we can

> certainly set examples in that regard, establishing varnashrama colleges

> which teach all the various skills, but I don't see ISKCON ever comprising

> the totality of human society, government and all.

>

> What do you think?

 

The unfolding of varnasrama will happen when we follow the orders of Srila

Prabhupada, and actively encourage & train people to realise their nature.

If this is done they will act properly in ISKCON according to their nature,

and gradualy rise to become vaisnavas, who are above varnasrama. The

important thing is that everyone in the varnasrama community chant the Holy

Name, and offer the results of their deeds to Lord Krsna.

 

I think it is clear that there is an immense amount of research that needs

to be done, and an immense amount of training and understanding of different

natures. One self realised soul however would help us get there quicker.

Prabhupada had no trouble understanding what to do, he just asked Krsna.

 

Your servant

Samba das