Thread 9: Proposal - Vaiyasaki dasa

September 28, 2000

Vaiyasaki Prabhu wrote:

> This is more evidence that no one is really sure what the varnas were.

> Conversely, there is no doubt what the asramas were.

One can argue though that many that appeared to be sanyasis were actualy not

qualified as sanyasis at all, they simply did not have that nature and

because they weren't able to maintain that asrama they fell down and are now

happily(?) householders.

Murari Caitanya prabhu mentioned that astrology plays an important part in

determining a persons nature. I was told in Udupi that the pandits there do

examine the charts of the boys in the gurukulas to determine who among them

are to be selected for training as the muths heads. Some of those boys take

sanyas as young teenagers or even before (if I remember correctly). They

have a very low rate of apostacy. It was quite a shock (when I was in

Bangalore about 3 years ago) when one of the swamijis did fall down (he was

in charge of the Subramania muth, and was famous for his sanskrit singing).

He married a local girl.

Your servant

Samba das

September 29, 2000

>Syamasundara (the astrologer) did do the

>horoscopes of those sannyasis and he never mentioned that they had grhastha

>horoscopes.

Maybe he is not such a good astrologer after all.

I think he also erred with SP's chart.

--

your servant,

Kunti-Devi dasi

http://www.vaach.com

September 30, 2000

Anantarupa prabhu wrote:

> Yes, it is not possible to "institute" varna in a single stroke, by

> passing a resolution or a law or something. However, it is definitely

> possible to allow devotees to engage in the service or occupation which

> naturally suits their psychophysical nature. All we have to do is

> recognize people's natural inclination and create schools where they can

> perfect it. Educational institutions like VIHE in Vrindavana and Mayapur,

> Gadadhara dasas Veda academy in Germany or Shamasundara dasa's vedic

> college in Alachua'are encouraging first steps in this direction. These

> schools mostly focus on teaching brahminical knowledge but in the future

> they might teach administration and management as well.

Really good points prabhu in general. Would you not consider though

Vaiyasakis idea that: yes for the general education, and in general, it

should be varna identification first. But for those adults eager to take up

the chanting etc, let them join, put them into an asram that's appears to be

immediatly appropriate, and then let them find their place, maybe in the

college, or maybe it will be apparent from the outset where they fit. ISKCON

now does the former, but not the latter, (letting them find their place) as

you pointed out .

And in another area, do you not consider the danger of the 'defeat' of the

check and balance system which may occur due to the development of pratistha

when you try to assemble brahmanas into a recognised body? I thought that

danger as pointed out by Bhaktarupa prabhu, was a major consideration.

What I am not clear on is how to actualy facilitate the independace of

brahmanas. What do we have to do to enable brahmanas to thrive

independantly?

Traditionaly they taught for free, and received some donation. This works if

a. there are people who want to be taught by them, and b. if those people

recognise the need to give 'decent' donations. Mind you, the real brahman

will be quite happy to fast! And of course this is all done in the context

of a village or town, where the brahmana has his place and from where he

cannot be pressured or controlled.

I guess, as is being pointed out a lot lately, that what is really required

is that living spirit. That life that the pure sadhu brings, that is the all

in all of spiritual life, as opposed to a reliance on the apparent

'trappings' of temples and institution. Is it that the morass we have in

ISKCON so far is because we don't recognise the dire need for the shelter

and service of the sadhus? Maybe our efforts to improve ISKCON will not be

successful till we give up the idea that we are the doers, or seers, and

accept that we need the everyday shelter of the life giving source?

If we want that, then just as temples appeared in the west where there were

none, due to Srila Prabhupadas desires, so varnasrama colleges, and Krsna

conscious villages can appear due to the desires of Srila Prabhupadas pure

devotee folowers. It is just a matter of consciousness change.

We remain ready to do, but seek guidance also, add the 'life'.

Your servant

Samba das

October 15, 2000

Hare Krsna Gurukrsna prabhu,

PAMHO AGTSP Thank you for sending me this little snippet, although I am

certain that there is more to this discussion than what you sent me. What is

the ultimate goal of this exchange? Is this simply "going out into the

ether" so to speak? In looking at the list of recipients of this, it is

apparent that the vast majority of them are all older men. Yes? Most - like

myself -individuals who have been studying Srila Prabhupadas books for 25

or 30 years. If they are anything like most normal men then they are all

quite set in their ways and understanding and little will move them from

there respective positions on almost any subject. Each one is "his own

arbiter" of truth insofar as they each read the words of His Divine Grace

and then "hear what they hear".

HG Bhakta Rupa prabhu is as far as I know very impressed with HH Gour

Govinda Swami. So whatever he expresses will be colored by his intellectual

and emotional commitment to that position. I have encountered some of the

followers of the Maharaja and clearly they are a special group.

All this back and forth about guru-sadhu-and sastra is a distraction. Anyone

who reads Srila Prabhupada's books understands this principle very clearly.

It becomes muddled by those who reject the "managerial" aspects of OUR

REPRESENTATIVE of these three converging manifestations of Lord Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

Following the orders of his gurumaharaja - he established a mission and a

Governing Body to manage it and "hold everyone's feet to the fire" in

matters that would significantly effect the mission. Since 1978 - our ISKCON

society has more or less embraced the "siksa" of HH Sridhara Swami as being

"more to our liking" and disregarded Srila Prabhupada's arrangements.

Although it is Srila Prabhupada's murti sitting atop all our temple

vyasasanas - it is the "interpretations of Sridhara Swami" that have guided

and I will submit, wreaked havoc on our movement. We might as well just repl

ace Srila Prabhupada's divine form with a picture of HH Sridhara Swami -

that would probably be more honest.

At this point, I personally do not belive that is is possible to fix. Every

disciple of Srila Prabhupada I know is thoroughly "convinced" of whatever

position we take on any matter - and we are going to do what we think is

correct. Srila Prabhupada had some 5 or 7 thousand disciples - and there are

5 or 7 thousand different "understandings" of what Srila Prabhupada taught

on every single issue. I would venture a guess that already every recipient

of these comments is already forming an opinion of every thing I have just

said (3 paragraphs) as well as me personally. Such is the nature of this

dilemna.

It may be fun or interesting - but it really does little to push book

distribution, HariNama or prasadam distribution and that is the only real

and tangible demonstration that one actually "knows the truth". BG 4.35

clearly defines the "self realized soul" as one who knows "that all beings

are in Me, are but part of Me and are Mine". Knowing this to be the

"TRUTH" - we are urged by GURU -SADHU - SASTRA - to do whatever we can to

reintroduce as many jivas to the Supreme Person - Lord Krsna - as we

possibly can. That's all.

Your servant Praghosa

guru-krsna das <afn39393 (AT) afn (DOT) org>

Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN) <Bhaktarupa.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

GBC.Restructure (AT) pamho (DOT) net <GBC.Restructure (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Ajamila (das) ACBSP

(Goloka Books - UK) <Ajamila.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Krsna Kirtana (dd) ACBSP (F)

<Krsna.Kirtana.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Vedic

Astrologer) (USA) <Shyamasundara.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Srirama (das) ACBSP

<Srirama.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Vaiyasaki (das) ACBSP (TP Jagannatha Puri - IN)

<Vaiyasaki.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)

<Samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:26 PM

Re: Thread 9: Proposal - Vaiyasaki dasa

>At 09:11 AM 10/15/00 +0630, Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN)

wrote:

>>Dear Guru Krishna Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>>

>>> Thank you very much for your comment. But I don't understand. Of course

>>> generally we say that guru-sadhu-sastra is the three-fold authority for

>>> the Vaisnavas. But if we say that guru-sadhu-sastra is the ultimate

>>> authority for ISKCON, then doesn't that open the door for interprations

>>> such as: "HH So-and-so Maharaja should be the siksa-guru for ISKCON"?

>>

>>To say that guru-sadhu-sastra is the ultimate authority for ISKCON means

>>that it is the ultimate authority for all the members of ISKCON. Of

course,

>>Krishna is our ultimate authority, but he chooses to give direction to the

>>devotees through guru-sadhu-sastra. And in order to reciprocate properly

>>with each individual devotee there are infinite varieties of guru, but

they

>>all are Krishna's manifestation. By each of us following guru-sadhu-sastra

>>then we are united in following Krishna and Srila Prabhupada, and thus in

>>the sense of aggregation guru-sadhu-sastra is the ultimate authority for

>>ISKCON.

>

>>This is just one possible explanation. Others may have different ones.

>>

>>As far as interpretations: Someone may say, "HH So-and-so Maharaja should

be

>>the siksa-guru for ISKCON." But if so-and-so is a follower of Srila

>>Prabhupada, and the devotees in general all accept him as siksa guru, then

I

>>see nothing wrong in principle with such a statement. But of course if it

is

>>said in the mood of coercion then that is a different matter.

>

>I thank you again, prabhuji, for your kindly answering as above. But I

>humbly submit that you did not address the case wherein "HH So-and-so

>Maharaja" happens *not* to be a follower of Srila Prabhupada. What happens

>then? He may be fully knowledgeable in sastra; he may be a bona fide guru;

>he may be highly respected by other sadhus; and he may desire to serve

>ISKCON by becoming the preeminent successor acarya of Srila Prabhupada,

>siksa-guru for all of ISKCON! (But he teaches differently from what is

found

>within Srila Prabhupada's books.) If not Prabhupada-sadhu-sastra (or should

>we instead say guru-sadhu-Srila Prabhupada's vani?) but simply

>guru-sadhu-sastra is our ultimate spiritual authority, then what would be

>the philosphically sound reason not to surrender to such Guru Maharaja who

>significantly differs philosphically from Srila Prabhupada?

>

>That is my concern and why I think that it's not at all sentimental or

>incorrect to establish Prabhupada-sadhu-sastra as the ultimate spiritual

>authority for all members of ISKCON. (And neither should that be

>misconstrued as ritvikism.)

>

>bhavadiya das(abhasa)aha,

>gkdas

>

October 18, 2000

At 01:22 PM 10/17/00 +0200, Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) wrote:

>I gave Dhira Govinda das as an example of such a brahmana

I humbly submit that if you are speaking "brahmana" in the sense of varna

(as opposed to one's sadhana or spiritual realization), then this Dhira

Govinda das cannot be cited as an example of a brahmana. He had full

opportunity to remain so while working under his diksa-guru in Florida, but

he left that status to pursue a mundane education, take employment from the

State of Florida ("A brahmana would rather starve than work for another" is

a direct quote of Srila Prabhupada's, what to speak of so many similar

statements about what constitutes a brahmana.), and pursue even further a

Ph.D. Does he offer his services to the Child Protection Agency gratis? I

think not, but if wrong i may please be corrected. This Dhira Govinda das

has held several seminars here in Alachua over the years, to teaches

counseling methods, but not once has he ever offered them free. One would

think that at the very least he could offer a free seminar in his own

backyard. What kind of "brahmana" is this? Please don't forget that modern

education teaches one to be sudra--i.e, dependent upon a master. Is Dhira

Govinda das not dependent upon either the state of Florida or a steady

paycheck from the ISKCON Child Protection agency, or both? He also charges

devotees $10/hour for his "brahminical" counseling. And, when another of our

famous assumed-to-be brahmanas (Braja Bihari das of Vrndavan Gurukula)

visited New Raman Reti last spring, he and Dhira Govinda das teamed up to

offer a short course on Nectar of Devotion--and you guessed it, they charged

a pretty fee for it!

When even so many of our sannyasis (the head of society) have proven to be

other than brahmanas, let's please not at all be too quick to call certain

grhastas (the belly of society) brahmanas.

And please excuse me, but just as Janesvara Prabhu's patience has worn thin

over the lack of varnasrama colleges and implementation of varnasrama-dharma

in ISKCON, so has mine. This world is a place of the cheaters and cheated,

and unfortunately there is no lack of either within ISKCON.

as humbly as i can be,

gkdas

October 19, 2000

Dear Guru-krsna das,

PAMHO, AGTSP.

I wanted to let you know that I couldn't post this message to GBC

Restructure

because of its personal nature. However, I've sent it to GBC Unmoderated, which

also reaches most members.

Personally, I tend to agree with you, especially that "A brahmana would

rather starve than work for another."

However, I can think of a reason why a brahmana might want to ask for a

nominal fee for some services. At the present, people only seem to value what

they pay for. This is the reason Srila Prabhupada gave as to why we should not

give books away for free. If a person receives a free book, he may simply throw

it away or put it with other things he doesn't value. If he pays for the book,

an attachment is developed and he is much more likely to treat it with respect.

I've also seen the practical application of this principle in ISKCON

management. Often the leadership will encourage you to do just about anything

as

long as it doesn't cost money. Many times, a leader will ask a talented devotee

to do some "vital and top-priority" task, only to later ignore the results or

decide it wasn't a priority after all. An effective way to find out in advance

just how important the work really is, is to ask for some money, an assistant,

or some other significant facility. If the leader balks, you pretty much know

your time would be better spent elsewhere.

Of course, if a brahmana gets money in this way, he can always give it away

to others and therefore remain pure.

There is another principle brahmanas should keep in mind: If a fee is

charged

for information, and that information later turns out to be false or harmful,

the brahmana gets the karma associated with it.

Just a thought.

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

[srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

[http://www.krishnagalleria.com]

|

|guru-krsna das [afn39393 (AT) afn (DOT) org]

|Tuesday, October 17, 2000 6:39 PM

|Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN); Srirama (das) ACBSP;

|Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN)

|Re: Thread 9: Proposal - Vaiyasaki dasa

|

|At 01:22 PM 10/17/00 +0200, Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) wrote:

|

|>I gave Dhira Govinda das as an example of such a brahmana

|

|I humbly submit that if you are speaking "brahmana" in the sense of varna

|(as opposed to one's sadhana or spiritual realization), then this Dhira

|Govinda das cannot be cited as an example of a brahmana. He had full

|opportunity to remain so while working under his diksa-guru in Florida, but

|he left that status to pursue a mundane education, take employment from the

|State of Florida ("A brahmana would rather starve than work for another" is

|a direct quote of Srila Prabhupada's, what to speak of so many similar

|statements about what constitutes a brahmana.), and pursue even further a

|Ph.D. Does he offer his services to the Child Protection Agency gratis? I

|think not, but if wrong i may please be corrected. This Dhira Govinda das

|has held several seminars here in Alachua over the years, to teaches

|counseling methods, but not once has he ever offered them free. One would

|think that at the very least he could offer a free seminar in his own

|backyard. What kind of "brahmana" is this? Please don't forget that modern

|education teaches one to be sudra--i.e, dependent upon a master. Is Dhira

|Govinda das not dependent upon either the state of Florida or a steady

|paycheck from the ISKCON Child Protection agency, or both? He also charges

|devotees $10/hour for his "brahminical" counseling. And, when another of our

|famous assumed-to-be brahmanas (Braja Bihari das of Vrndavan Gurukula)

|visited New Raman Reti last spring, he and Dhira Govinda das teamed up to

|offer a short course on Nectar of Devotion--and you guessed it, they charged

|a pretty fee for it!

|

|When even so many of our sannyasis (the head of society) have proven to be

|other than brahmanas, let's please not at all be too quick to call certain

|grhastas (the belly of society) brahmanas.

|

|And please excuse me, but just as Janesvara Prabhu's patience has worn thin

|over the lack of varnasrama colleges and implementation of varnasrama-dharma

|in ISKCON, so has mine. This world is a place of the cheaters and cheated,

|and unfortunately there is no lack of either within ISKCON.

|

|as humbly as i can be,

|gkdas

|

October 19, 2000

Hare Krishna.

Due to the subject of this text, it has been posted to the GBC Unmoderated

conference, rather than GBC restructure. If you choose to reply to the text,

please subtract GBC Restructure as a receiver.

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

Conference Moderator

|

|Patrick Hedemark [praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net]

|Wednesday, October 18, 2000 3:42 AM

|Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN); Srirama (das) ACBSP;

|Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN); guru-krsna das

|Re: Thread 9: Proposal - Vaiyasaki dasa

|

|Hare Krsna Gurukrsna prabhu,

|PAMHO AGTSP You are spot on! Like the last little snippet you have sent me,

|this one is a little scanty - but I get the gist of the exchange. One thing

|is - you must judge that which is being presented as "knowledge" by what it

|yields. What is the fruit? This is how to determine whether that which is

|being presented as knowledge is actually so. What can be done with the

|information and precisely how will this information benefit society as a

|whole.

|

|You mention that some devotees came to Alachua and gave a course on Nectar

|of Devotion and charged money for the course. This should have been laughed

|out of the community! NOD is the SCIENCE OF BHAKTI - not the BUSINESS OF

|HUSTLING! Every one of our temples is the ACADAMY OF THE NECTAR OF DEVOTION.

|The transcendental book is ITSELF available and required daily reading for

|all initiated disciples and grandisciples alike. BAS! If read in the

|association of devotees who are all mutually enthusiastic to fully embrace

|it's counsel, the results will be tangible - observable - and most

|importantly REPLICABLE!

|

|Brahmana means independently self satisfied. It means fixed up in FEARLESS

|and total DEPENDENCE on Lord Krsna. "If I commit myself to preaching the

|glories of the Holy Name and the Glories of the Devotee of Krsna - then He

|will provide me my necessities." THAT IS BRAHMANA!

|

|IT IS NOT AN ACADEMIC POSITION.

|

|Scholarship is there. But it is the kind of scholarship that generates love

|for Krsna and SERVICE to His devotees. Not the desire to pose oneself as

|needed or valued without actually having the capacity to provide any REAL

|TANGIBLE service.

|

|What has the Child Protection Office ACTUALLY DONE? Nothing. All child Abuse

|is eliminated by swift and brutal retribution by men who are not hesitant to

|deliver the violence. KSATRIYA means "he who protects(trayate) by

|hurting(ksat). That is all. Talk is very cheap. The criminal must know what

|the PRICE for his nefarious actions will be. Given that information - the

|criminal can make an informed decision as to whether or not he is willing

|to risk serious bodily harm or not in the pursuit of his nefarious goals.

|This would most definitely include child molesters - they are by nature

|cowardly "in the extreme"!Child Abuse is not possible in an environment

|where the parents are looking after their child and men are in position and

|ready to deliver a very swift and severe reaction to any nonsense rascal who

|would even THINK about harming a child! Bas!

|

|Your servant Praghosa

|

|guru-krsna das <afn39393 (AT) afn (DOT) org>

|Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) <Anantarupa.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

|GBC.Restructure (AT) pamho (DOT) net <GBC.Restructure (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Bhaktarupa (das)

|ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN) <Bhaktarupa.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; Srirama (das) ACBSP

|<Srirama.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; GBC Restructure <GBC.Restructure (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

|Tuesday, October 17, 2000 8:35 PM

|Re: Thread 9: Proposal - Vaiyasaki dasa

|

|>At 01:22 PM 10/17/00 +0200, Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) wrote:

|>

|>>I gave Dhira Govinda das as an example of such a brahmana

|>

|>I humbly submit that if you are speaking "brahmana" in the sense of varna

|>(as opposed to one's sadhana or spiritual realization), then this Dhira

|>Govinda das cannot be cited as an example of a brahmana. He had full

|>opportunity to remain so while working under his diksa-guru in Florida, but

|>he left that status to pursue a mundane education, take employment from the

|>State of Florida ("A brahmana would rather starve than work for another" is

|>a direct quote of Srila Prabhupada's, what to speak of so many similar

|>statements about what constitutes a brahmana.), and pursue even further a

|>Ph.D. Does he offer his services to the Child Protection Agency gratis? I

|>think not, but if wrong i may please be corrected. This Dhira Govinda das

|>has held several seminars here in Alachua over the years, to teaches

|>counseling methods, but not once has he ever offered them free. One would

|>think that at the very least he could offer a free seminar in his own

|>backyard. What kind of "brahmana" is this? Please don't forget that modern

|>education teaches one to be sudra--i.e, dependent upon a master. Is Dhira

|>Govinda das not dependent upon either the state of Florida or a steady

|>paycheck from the ISKCON Child Protection agency, or both? He also charges

|>devotees $10/hour for his "brahminical" counseling. And, when another of

|our

|>famous assumed-to-be brahmanas (Braja Bihari das of Vrndavan Gurukula)

|>visited New Raman Reti last spring, he and Dhira Govinda das teamed up to

|>offer a short course on Nectar of Devotion--and you guessed it, they

|charged

|>a pretty fee for it!

|>

|>When even so many of our sannyasis (the head of society) have proven to be

|>other than brahmanas, let's please not at all be too quick to call certain

|>grhastas (the belly of society) brahmanas.

|>

|>And please excuse me, but just as Janesvara Prabhu's patience has worn thin

|>over the lack of varnasrama colleges and implementation of

|varnasrama-dharma

|>in ISKCON, so has mine. This world is a place of the cheaters and cheated,

|>and unfortunately there is no lack of either within ISKCON.

|>

|>as humbly as i can be,

|>gkdas

|>

|

October 19, 2000

Dear Pragosa Prabhu,

PAMHO, AGTSP.

You said, "Child Abuse is not possible in an environment where the parents

are looking after their child and men are in position and ready to deliver a

very swift and severe reaction to any nonsense rascal who would even THINK

about

harming a child! Bas!"

Actually, this is not at all true -- at least it is not true in connection

with sexual abuse. And if we desire to protect our children from abuse, it is

important to understand why it is not true.

Sexual abuse occurs often to children of responsible, watchful parents and

in

cultures where punishment is swift and severe (at least by modern standards).

Usually this type of abuser is not discouraged by the threat of punishment.

They

are sexually aroused by children, much as a normal man is sexually attracted to

a women. Therefore, this drive is very strong and is not constrained by

rational

or reasoning thought. Such persons will often work patiently for years to get

themselves into a situation with easy access to children. For example, many men

have been known to marry a single woman with young children solely for the

purpose of abusing the kids when they get a little older.

Maintaining access to children requires that the abuser convince the child

to

keep quiet about the abuse. Usually this is done through psychological

intimidation that keeps the child in fear, or in the fantasy of a "special"

secret relationship. Every child is a potential victim and such abusers are

seldom discovered quickly, if at all. Child abusers are, more often than not,

clever and patient.

Therefore, we should never think that some children are protected because

they have a strong family group or live in safe community. If you have an

abuser

in your midst, chances are you will never know unless your son or daughter

tells

you. Therefore, the only truly effective means of protecting children is by

educating them from an early age about the nature of child abuse, how to keep

themselves safe, and what to do if they become a victim.

Your servant,

Sri Rama das

[srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

[http://www.krishnagalleria.com]

October 20, 2000

Dear Janesvara Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

Not being an initiated member of the varnasrama dharma conferences or the

Prabhupada Disciples conference, I must admit that my curiousity has quite

overwhelmed me. Since you have correctly stated that the leadership of our

society has not instituted full varnasrama dharma training in ALL ISKCON

centers I was wondering if there are any shades of grey allowed? In other

words, if you were to allow someone to indulge in some positive thinking,

would any of the following statements pass unchallenged?

Some varnasrama dharma training is going on in some ISKCON centers.

Some varnasrama dharma training is going on in most ISKCON centers.

Some vague hints of varnasrama dharma training is going on in all ISKCON

centers.

Varnasrama dharma training is going on in some ISKCON centers.

Informal varnasrama dharma training is going on in some ISKCON centers, but

it needs to be formalized as such.

Informal varnasrama dharma training is going on most everywhere in ISKCON

but it needs to be formalized as such.

There is some formal varnasrama training going on in ISKCON.

X is a good model of varnasrama training according to Srila Prabhupada's

incontrovertible instructions.

Or, if none of these are acceptable, what positive statement could you

possibly venture if you really tried hard?

Also, in all our ISKCON centers new devotees receive training in the

chanting of japa, bowing down before the deity, offering prayers to the

deity, worshiping the deity, worshiping tulasi, worshiping the spiritual

master, surrendering to the spiritual master, wearing tilak, wearing kanthi

mala, and most of the other 64 parts of bhakti listed in the Nectar of

Devotion. Is this training:

irrelevant to varnasrama dharma training?

independent of varnasrama dharma training?

included in varnasrama dharma training?

a minor part of varnasrama dharma training?

only for specific varnas and/or ashramas?

to be given after varnasrama dharma training?

unnecessary?

Please don't mind. This is my genuine curiousity. I really want to

understand your point a little better, as obviously you have done quite a

lot of thinking about this over the years.

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

PS. Sriram Prabhu can put this in Unmoderated if he prefers. I couldn't

figure out how to do that myself.

October 20, 2000

Dear Bhaktarupa Das Prabhu, Namaste. Jaya Prabhupada!

I was wondering when you were going to get around to commenting on some of

my stuff. It actually started to concern me that you hadn't yet. I wasn't

sure if you felt my comments were just not worth responding to because of my

low character or you just had a higher tolerance level than some others on

the conference.

Either way, I am quite pleased that you have engaged me. Sincerely. I have

read all of your comments and realize that I am no match for your

intelligence, character and purity.

I cannot answer the questions tonight because I am nodding off while typing

like I used to in Bhagavatam class and japa. I will try to respond with what

little intelligence I possess in respect for your sincere and tolerant mode

of inquiry by this weekend. I hope you forgive the delay.

Until then,

Hari! Hari!

Janesvara dasa

> Dear Janesvara Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

> Not being an initiated member of the varnasrama dharma conferences or the

> Prabhupada Disciples conference, I must admit that my curiousity has quite

> overwhelmed me. Since you have correctly stated that the leadership of our

> society has not instituted full varnasrama dharma training in ALL ISKCON

> centers I was wondering if there are any shades of grey allowed? In other

> words, if you were to allow someone to indulge in some positive thinking,

> would any of the following statements pass unchallenged?

>

> Some varnasrama dharma training is going on in some ISKCON centers.

> Some varnasrama dharma training is going on in most ISKCON centers.

> Some vague hints of varnasrama dharma training is going on in all ISKCON

> centers.

> Varnasrama dharma training is going on in some ISKCON centers.

> Informal varnasrama dharma training is going on in some ISKCON centers,

> but it needs to be formalized as such.

> Informal varnasrama dharma training is going on most everywhere in ISKCON

> but it needs to be formalized as such.

> There is some formal varnasrama training going on in ISKCON.

> X is a good model of varnasrama training according to Srila Prabhupada's

> incontrovertible instructions.

>

> Or, if none of these are acceptable, what positive statement could you

> possibly venture if you really tried hard?

>

> Also, in all our ISKCON centers new devotees receive training in the

> chanting of japa, bowing down before the deity, offering prayers to the

> deity, worshiping the deity, worshiping tulasi, worshiping the spiritual

> master, surrendering to the spiritual master, wearing tilak, wearing

> kanthi mala, and most of the other 64 parts of bhakti listed in the Nectar

> of Devotion. Is this training:

>

> irrelevant to varnasrama dharma training?

> independent of varnasrama dharma training?

> included in varnasrama dharma training?

> a minor part of varnasrama dharma training?

> only for specific varnas and/or ashramas?

> to be given after varnasrama dharma training?

> unnecessary?

>

> Please don't mind. This is my genuine curiousity. I really want to

> understand your point a little better, as obviously you have done quite a

> lot of thinking about this over the years.

>

> Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

>

> PS. Sriram Prabhu can put this in Unmoderated if he prefers. I couldn't

> figure out how to do that myself.

October 20, 2000

Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

Thank you very much for pointing out the insidious nature of child abuse.

Not only children, but adults need to be educated as you are doing for those

on this conference.

Thank you.

Your servant,

Pancaratna das

October 20, 2000

> > >I gave Dhira Govinda das as an example of such a brahmana

> >

>

> Guru Krishna Prabhu wrote:

>

> > I humbly submit that if you are speaking "brahmana" in the sense of

> > varna (as opposed to one's sadhana or spiritual realization), then this

> > Dhira Govinda das cannot be cited as an example of a brahmana.

I do not know Dhira Govinda das intimately. I do not know how he maintains

himself and I do not know how spiritually advanced he is. All I know is

that before he took over as head of the CPO, ISKCON had no international

office of child protection and now it has one. I think that´s great and we

should give credit where credit is due. When Dhira Govinda das

came to Mayapur and helped the local CPT with some cases I was

impressed by his commitment and knowledge and also by the sensitive manner

the CPO handled some touchy cases. That´s all. DG seems to be an expert in

child abuse prevention and I felt that ISKCON needs more such experts in

various fields of knowledge to help our GBCs solve the more mundane

problems of our society. I used the word brahmana in the sense of the word

vipra. A vipra is a learned person who has knowledge about niti shastra,

dharma shastra or upaveda but he is not necessarily as saintly and

renounced as a Bhaktivedanta. There are degrees of brahmanas. There are

Maharishis, rishis, munis, vipras. They are all brahmanas, men learned in

the veda, but they are not all equally pure.

Whether or not Dhira Govinda is very saintly and very renounced, I am not

competent to judge. I was merely trying to point out that the GBC should

make an effort to establish a varnashram college which could train some

experts who can help them solve their social problems.

For instance, in Mayapur, we have had allegations of child abuse where

the accused denied everything. Did the child make the whole thing up or is

the guy really guilty? Should he be expelled from the temple or ISKCON for

good based on an allegation? Should you simply beat the hell out of the

guy and make him admit? But what if you do and the guy admits to make you

stop beating but later recants and goes on a big crusade against you. Then

you may be back to square one. A section of your population may back the

suspect and may shout "injustice" etc. Things like this actually happened

in Mayapur. And merely beating culprits does not remove the plague of

child abuse at all. From what I understand, someone was beaten in Mayapur

for something (I was not there) but later on hung himself. What if the guy

was not guilty?

All I am trying to say is:Social life can be very very complex and to

navigate safely through the mess of kali yuga you need experts who know

something about social affairs, law, management,education, counselling,

economics etc.etc. To that end we need varnashrama colleges to train our

managers, experts and GBCs.If we dont wnat to do that, then better send all

grihashtas, women and kids home and make ashrams which are exclusively for

celibates. Then we dont have to worry about social problems.

As to your point that Dhira Govinda das and Braja Bihari das cannot be

brahmanas because they charged for a lecture. I would like to point out

that Lord Caitanya went to East Bengal to earn money by teaching. Of

course he simultaneously introduced the samkirtana movement wherever he

went but the CC specifically reports that the Lord returned home bringing

with him great wealth which he received form his followers (CC adi 16.23).

So it seems that Gauranga received a lot of daskhina and, thus, the Lord

could marry Vishnupriya without having to worry about his maintenance. Now

in ISKCON there are many brahmanas who have a family to maintain but no

followers to give dakshina. What to do? Well if they dont want to starve

they may have to ask for a little something. Doesnt seem to be such a

great offense. Certainly not more than taking knowledge from a teacher and

not giving any dakshina in return.But anyway I am sure you have your own

opinion and as usual, we will probably have to agree to disagree.

If not, I would be delighted.

respectfully, ys Anantarupa das

October 20, 2000

Dear Sri Rama Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

I am afraid I have to disagree with your response to Guru Krishna Prabhu, at

least on one point. First some background:

It was Anantarupa Prabhu who suggested Dhira Govinda Prabhu's name as a

brahmana. This should have been kept in mind by Guru Krishna Prabhu, as he

has not presented any evidence here that Dhira Govinda Prabhu is actually

claiming that qualification for himself. Thus his painting of the Alachua

seminars as pretention in this way is not an established point. (Please note

that I am not asking here for him to prove it.)

Secondly, I agree with you that under some circumstances it may be

beneficial to charge for one's services in order to make sure that the

services are appreciated and actually needed. But for brahmanas, I really

doubt it.

However, to charge for the teaching of sastra TO DEVOTEES cannot be

supported under any circumstances, by anyone, brahmana or not! Are they

paying royalty to Srila Vyasadeva? To Srila Rupa Goswami? We may charge a

fee to karmis if it will enhance our presentation, provided that money goes

straight to the direct service of Krishna. But to devotees, no. And giving

the money away to others doesn't help, because the devotees belong to

Krishna, thus their money belongs to Krishna, and thus it is taking money

from Krishna. Whom will you give it to?

And if the situation in Alachua is that only if you charge money will the

devotees want to come, hear, and appreciate a discourse on Nectar of

Devotion, then I would question why a brahmana would want to speak there! (I

am not saying that the situation is like that, but you seem to be suggesting

such a possibility in your text.)

A brahmana speaks on sastra for his own purification and benefit. If no one

is there to reciprocate with him then he speaks to the bare walls or goes

elsewhere.

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

> Dear Guru-krsna das,

> PAMHO, AGTSP.

>

> I wanted to let you know that I couldn't post this message to GBC

> Restructure

> because of its personal nature. However, I've sent it to GBC Unmoderated,

> which also reaches most members.

>

> Personally, I tend to agree with you, especially that "A brahmana would

> rather starve than work for another."

>

> However, I can think of a reason why a brahmana might want to ask for a

> nominal fee for some services. At the present, people only seem to value

> what they pay for. This is the reason Srila Prabhupada gave as to why we

> should not give books away for free. If a person receives a free book, he

> may simply throw it away or put it with other things he doesn't value. If

> he pays for the book, an attachment is developed and he is much more

> likely to treat it with respect.

>

> I've also seen the practical application of this principle in ISKCON

> management. Often the leadership will encourage you to do just about

> anything as

> long as it doesn't cost money. Many times, a leader will ask a talented

> devotee to do some "vital and top-priority" task, only to later ignore the

> results or decide it wasn't a priority after all. An effective way to find

> out in advance just how important the work really is, is to ask for some

> money, an assistant, or some other significant facility. If the leader

> balks, you pretty much know your time would be better spent elsewhere.

>

> Of course, if a brahmana gets money in this way, he can always give it

> away to others and therefore remain pure.

>

> There is another principle brahmanas should keep in mind: If a fee is

> charged

> for information, and that information later turns out to be false or

> harmful, the brahmana gets the karma associated with it.

>

> Just a thought.

>

> Your servant,

> Sri Rama das

>

> [srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> [http://www.krishnagalleria.com]

>

> |

> |guru-krsna das [afn39393 (AT) afn (DOT) org]

> |Tuesday, October 17, 2000 6:39 PM

> |Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN); Srirama (das) ACBSP;

> |Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN)

> |Re: Thread 9: Proposal - Vaiyasaki dasa

> |

> |At 01:22 PM 10/17/00 +0200, Anantarupa (das) HKS (Mayapur - IN) wrote:

> |

> |>I gave Dhira Govinda das as an example of such a brahmana

> |

> |I humbly submit that if you are speaking "brahmana" in the sense of varna

> |(as opposed to one's sadhana or spiritual realization), then this Dhira

> |Govinda das cannot be cited as an example of a brahmana. He had full

> |opportunity to remain so while working under his diksa-guru in Florida,

> but |he left that status to pursue a mundane education, take employment

> from the |State of Florida ("A brahmana would rather starve than work for

> another" is |a direct quote of Srila Prabhupada's, what to speak of so

> many similar |statements about what constitutes a brahmana.), and pursue

> even further a |Ph.D. Does he offer his services to the Child Protection

> Agency gratis? I |think not, but if wrong i may please be corrected. This

> Dhira Govinda das |has held several seminars here in Alachua over the

> years, to teaches |counseling methods, but not once has he ever offered

> them free. One would |think that at the very least he could offer a free

> seminar in his own |backyard. What kind of "brahmana" is this? Please

> don't forget that modern |education teaches one to be sudra--i.e,

> dependent upon a master. Is Dhira |Govinda das not dependent upon either

> the state of Florida or a steady |paycheck from the ISKCON Child

> Protection agency, or both? He also charges |devotees $10/hour for his

> "brahminical" counseling. And, when another of our |famous assumed-to-be

> brahmanas (Braja Bihari das of Vrndavan Gurukula) |visited New Raman Reti

> last spring, he and Dhira Govinda das teamed up to |offer a short course

> on Nectar of Devotion--and you guessed it, they charged |a pretty fee for

> it!

> |

> |When even so many of our sannyasis (the head of society) have proven to

> be |other than brahmanas, let's please not at all be too quick to call

> certain |grhastas (the belly of society) brahmanas.

> |

> |And please excuse me, but just as Janesvara Prabhu's patience has worn

> thin |over the lack of varnasrama colleges and implementation of

> varnasrama-dharma |in ISKCON, so has mine. This world is a place of the

> cheaters and cheated, |and unfortunately there is no lack of either

> within ISKCON.

> |

> |as humbly as i can be,

> |gkdas

> |

October 20, 2000

Anantarupa Prabhu wrote:

> DG seems to be an expert

> in

> child abuse prevention and I felt that ISKCON needs more such experts in

> various fields of knowledge to help our GBCs solve the more mundane

> problems of our society. I used the word brahmana in the sense of the

> word

> vipra. A vipra is a learned person who has knowledge about niti shastra,

> dharma shastra or upaveda but he is not necessarily as saintly and

> renounced as a Bhaktivedanta. There are degrees of brahmanas. There are

> Maharishis, rishis, munis, vipras. They are all brahmanas, men learned in

> the veda, but they are not all equally pure.

Do all four types qualify according to samo damas tapah saucam...? If so,

then it would appear to this conditioned soul that only being expert in a

certain field of knowledge and being able to successfully communicate it to

others is not in itself the mark of a vipra. Yet you seem to be relying very

heavily on that ability and based on that have been willing to proclaim

someone to be in that category. There must be something I am missing in your

analysis. Please explain.

> Whether or not Dhira Govinda is very saintly and very renounced, I am not

> competent to judge. I was merely trying to point out that the GBC should

> make an effort to establish a varnashram college which could train some

> experts who can help them solve their social problems.

Of course, this is a definite fact. But are all experts trained by a

varnasrama college going to be brahmanas because they are expert in a

particular field of knowledge?

> As to your point that Dhira Govinda das and Braja Bihari das cannot be

> brahmanas because they charged for a lecture. I would like to point out

> that Lord Caitanya went to East Bengal to earn money by teaching. Of

> course he simultaneously introduced the samkirtana movement wherever he

> went but the CC specifically reports that the Lord returned home bringing

> with him great wealth which he received form his followers (CC adi

> 16.23).

> So it seems that Gauranga received a lot of daskhina and, thus, the Lord

> could marry Vishnupriya without having to worry about his maintenance.

I must protest! The system the Lord followed involved teaching without

charging a fee. The students out of loving reciprocation naturally gave him

wealth as daksina. Charging a flat fee and excluding those who cannot pay is

not even close to the same system. Please do not compare this to the

activities of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

> Now

> in ISKCON there are many brahmanas who have a family to maintain but no

> followers to give dakshina. What to do? Well if they dont want to starve

> they may have to ask for a little something.

Well, I am quite amazed that you think that starvation should be a

deterrent. Who is starving? Please tell me very frankly, is starving really

a risk that might deter a genuine brahmana from teaching the sastras? Why

should they have to ask for a little something when Krishna is eagerly

looking for an opportunity to serve the preachers?

> Doesnt seem to be such a

> great offense.

Technically, it is an offense to the sastras. You may call it minor. I would

prefer to avoid all kinds of offenses, small or large.

> Certainly not more than taking knowledge from a teacher

> and not giving any dakshina in return.

For a student who fails to give daksina according to his ability, his

knowledge becomes like a heavy weight around his neck which drags him to the

depths of degradation. But giving daksina is a different process than paying

a fixed fee.

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

October 20, 2000

At 09:41 PM 10/20/00 +0630, Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN) wrote:

>Dear Sri Rama Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

>I am afraid I have to disagree with your response to Guru Krishna Prabhu, at

>least on one point. First some background:

>

>It was Anantarupa Prabhu who suggested Dhira Govinda Prabhu's name as a

>brahmana. This should have been kept in mind by Guru Krishna Prabhu, as he

>has not presented any evidence here that Dhira Govinda Prabhu is actually

>claiming that qualification for himself.

Prabhuji, please do not misunderstand. I did not say that DGP was claiming

that for himself. I simply responded to A'rupa P's statement by supplying

some facts.

Thus his painting of the Alachua

>seminars as pretention in this way is not an established point. (Please note

>that I am not asking here for him to prove it.)

Accha, prabhuji! Did i suggest any degree of pretention? Not all. Again, i

simply stated some *facts* in refutation of the idea that such method of

charging for services may be considered bona fide brahminism. Since a

certain devotee was cited as an example of a brahmana (but since clarified

to mean "vipra,") how could i refute that example without supplying facts

pertaining to that very same person? (None of us can deny our identities as

persons, right?)

>Secondly, I agree with you that under some circumstances it may be

>beneficial to charge for one's services in order to make sure that the

>services are appreciated and actually needed. But for brahmanas, I really

>doubt it.

And that was the essential point of my comments.

>However, to charge for the teaching of sastra TO DEVOTEES cannot be

>supported under any circumstances, by anyone, brahmana or not! Are they

>paying royalty to Srila Vyasadeva? To Srila Rupa Goswami? We may charge a

>fee to karmis if it will enhance our presentation, provided that money goes

>straight to the direct service of Krishna. But to devotees, no. And giving

>the money away to others doesn't help, because the devotees belong to

>Krishna, thus their money belongs to Krishna, and thus it is taking money

>from Krishna. Whom will you give it to?

And i never suggested that such devotees could not *accept* donations for

their seminars, lectures, counseling, etc. I simpy say that to charge for

them is not brahminical---it is business mentality.

>A brahmana speaks on sastra for his own purification and benefit. If no one

>is there to reciprocate with him then he speaks to the bare walls or goes

>elsewhere.

Sadhu!

bhavadiya das(abhas)aha,

gkdas

October 21, 2000

|

|Bhaktarupa.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net [bhaktarupa.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

|However, to charge for the teaching of sastra TO DEVOTEES cannot be

|supported under any circumstances, by anyone, brahmana or not! Are they

|paying royalty to Srila Vyasadeva? To Srila Rupa Goswami? We may charge a

|fee to karmis if it will enhance our presentation, provided that money goes

|straight to the direct service of Krishna.

I would agree that accepting a fee for teaching sastra is inappropriate. I

was not addressing that particular event.

ys

SRd

October 21, 2000

Dear Guru Krishna Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

Please forgive the misunderstanding.

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

October 21, 2000

Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

> All I am trying to say is:Social life can be very very complex and to

> navigate safely through the mess of kali yuga you need experts who know

> something about social affairs, law, management,education, counselling,

> economics etc.etc. To that end we need varnashrama colleges to train our

> managers, experts and GBCs.If we dont wnat to do that, then better send

> all grihashtas, women and kids home and make ashrams which are exclusively

> for celibates. Then we dont have to worry about social problems.

Whether or not our non-renunciant members are independent (which I believe

they should be) it was Srila Prabhupada's desire that we "worry about social

problems". The famous 1974 conversation is clear about this:

> Srila Prabhupada: But Caitanya Mahaprabhu said para-upakara. Why a certain

> section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit

> of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmany abhiratah

> samsiddhim labhate narah. Para-upakara means mass benefit, not there is

> certain section. Then we have to introduce this varnashrama-dharma. It

> must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.

Preceisely because he was concerned with the social problems of human

society Srila Prabhupada wanted us to start varnashram colleges. These

colleges would directly address both the social and spiritual welfare of all

people, starting with devotees, but not limited.

IN another conversation around the same time Srila Prabhupada said:

> Prabhupada: Eh? Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations, big,

> big expenditure, so many humbug, bharam udvahato vimudhan, humbug program,

> and no result. Prahlada Maharaja said, "I am thinking, I am, only for

> these rascals. They're making humbug program, but there is no action. And

> for temporary, so-called happiness, without God consciousness. I am simply

> thinking of them. Otherwise, personally, I have no problem." This was

> spoken by Prahlada Maharaja to Nrsimhadeva. Soce tato vimukha-cetasa

> maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan. (break) ...business has become like

> Prahlada Maharaja. We can chant anywhere. That's all right. Krsna will

> provide everything. We have no business to do. But we have to take them

> because we are sympathizer, that so many people are being killed by this

> modern civilization. They had the opportunity to become Krsna conscious,

> but by the set-up of this rascal civilization, they are being killed

> spiritually. Therefore we have to take it. (break) ...devotee, personally,

> he has no problem, but he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach

> them how to live, how to become gentlemen. Therefore... Otherwise, we have

> no business. But if we don't give them the opportunity, they'll not be

> able to come to Krsna consciousness. (break) ...it will be good for you

> because Krsna will see, "Oh, here is My devotee. He's doing so much for

> me." Your service will be recognized by Krsna. Don't think that because

> you are teaching a sudra how to work like this, you have become a sudra.

> You are not sudras, any circumstances. Even though you teach to a sudra

> how to work like a sudra. (break) ...stand. Don't misunderstand. Clearly

> understand what is the purpose. Is there doubt? Or it is clear?

To me it is clear that Srila Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to extend itself into

society through the medium of education and thus address all varieties of

social problems.

So then even if ISKCON were to "send all grihashtas, women and kids home and

make ashrams which are exclusively for celibates." it cannot escape its

mandate to work for their social upliftment, beginning with applying

appropriate varnashram principles within its own organization.

Personally, I believe that Srila Prabhupada was not so much concerned with

the formalities of varnashram, including the labels like brahman, ksatriya,

etc. or even applying rigid restrictions on the roles of women. After all,

our real aim is simply to chant Hare Krishna offenselessly and serve the

Lord with pure heart. But he often exorted us to use our intelligence and I

believe this begins with understanding the principles behind the formalities

and applying them according to time,place and circumstance.

Varnashram college will be the incubator for deepening our understanding of

these principles and developing suitable applications in modern life.

It is long overdue.

Your servant,

Pancaratna das

October 21, 2000

Ki jaya

Children should be taught from a very early age about what is

appropriate behavior and how to recognize any thing out of the

ordinary. That it is okay to question it with there parent(s), guardian

etceteras following the gopas and gopis behavior in a nurturing communal

environment. Any one gopa or gopi could go to any elder for proper

advice for all had the same perspective as to what constitutes proper

vaisnava behavior.

"Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote:

>

> Dear Pragosa Prabhu,

> PAMHO, AGTSP.

>

> You said, "Child Abuse is not possible in an environment where the parents

> are looking after their child and men are in position and ready to deliver a

> very swift and severe reaction to any nonsense rascal who would even THINK

> about

> harming a child! Bas!"

>

> Actually, this is not at all true -- at least it is not true in connection

> with sexual abuse. And if we desire to protect our children from abuse, it is

> important to understand why it is not true.

>

> Sexual abuse occurs often to children of responsible, watchful parents and

> in

> cultures where punishment is swift and severe (at least by modern standards).

> Usually this type of abuser is not discouraged by the threat of punishment.

> They

> are sexually aroused by children, much as a normal man is sexually attracted

to

> a women. Therefore, this drive is very strong and is not constrained by

> rational

> or reasoning thought. Such persons will often work patiently for years to get

> themselves into a situation with easy access to children. For example, many

men

> have been known to marry a single woman with young children solely for the

> purpose of abusing the kids when they get a little older.

>

> Maintaining access to children requires that the abuser convince the child

> to

> keep quiet about the abuse. Usually this is done through psychological

> intimidation that keeps the child in fear, or in the fantasy of a "special"

> secret relationship. Every child is a potential victim and such abusers are

> seldom discovered quickly, if at all. Child abusers are, more often than not,

> clever and patient.

>

> Therefore, we should never think that some children are protected because

> they have a strong family group or live in safe community. If you have an

> abuser

> in your midst, chances are you will never know unless your son or daughter

> tells

> you. Therefore, the only truly effective means of protecting children is by

> educating them from an early age about the nature of child abuse, how to keep

> themselves safe, and what to do if they become a victim.

>

> Your servant,

> Sri Rama das

>

> [srirama.acbsp (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> [http://www.krishnagalleria.com]

October 21, 2000

>

> I humbly submit that if you are speaking "brahmana" in the sense of varna

> (as opposed to one's sadhana or spiritual realization), then this Dhira

> Govinda das cannot be cited as an example of a brahmana. He had full

> opportunity to remain so while working under his diksa-guru in Florida,

> but he left that status to pursue a mundane education, take employment

> from the State of Florida ("A brahmana would rather starve than work for

> another" is a direct quote of Srila Prabhupada's, what to speak of so many

> similar statements about what constitutes a brahmana.),

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is also an example of someone who

was obtaining high mundane education, taking employment from the

state (a British colony then), being paid for that job of his...

He did not starve. He rather worked for another.

- mnd

October 21, 2000

At 09:43 AM 10/21/00 +0630, Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP (Bhubaneswara - IN) wrote:

>Dear Guru Krishna Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

>

>Please forgive the misunderstanding.

Of course, prabhuji.

bhavadiya das(abhasa)aha,

gkdas

October 21, 2000

Dear Guru-Krishna Prabhu, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to

Srila Prabhupada.

> > Does this mean real varnashrama dharma the way Srila Prabhupada meant it

> > to be and is explained in the Sastras like Srimad Bhagavatam

(especially

> > 7th canto) and Manu Samhita, or "new age" varnashrama dharma? In "new

> > age" varnashrama dharma as is presently practiced by the GBC women are

> > leaders (GBC, TPs etc), in real Varnashrama Dharma they are not.

>

> 2. Just for the record, can you please give the quote(s) from Srimad

> Bhagavatam which exclude women from taking the role of GBC or TP? Since

> Anantarupa Prabhu has already established in this conference that our

> management by committee system has no precedent in vedic history it would

be

> good to start with a sound sastric basis.

>

> Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

>

Can you please forward these references to whomever requested them:

Regarding quotes that exclude women (SB 10.4.5):

------------

bahavo himsita bhratah

sisavah pavakopamah

tvaya daiva-nisrstena

putrikaika pradiyatam

SYNONYMS

bahavah-many; himsitah-killed out of envy; bhratah-my dear brother;

sisavah-small children; pavaka-upamah-all of them equal to fire in

brightness and beauty; tvaya-by you; daiva-nisrstena-as spoken by destiny;

putrika-daughter; eka-one; pradiyatam-give me as your gift.

TRANSLATION

My dear brother, by the influence of destiny you have already killed many

babies, each of them as bright and beautiful as fire. But kindly spare this

daughter. Give her to me as your gift.

PURPORT

Here we see that Devaki first focused Kamsa's attention on his atrocious

activities, his killing of her many sons. Then she wanted to compromise with

him by saying that whatever he had done was not his fault, but was ordained

by destiny. Then she appealed to him to give her the daughter as a gift.

Devaki was the daughter of a ksatriya and knew how to play the political

game. In politics there are different methods of achieving success: first

repression (dama), then compromise (sama), and then asking for a gift

(dana). Devaki first adopted the policy of repression by directly attacking

Kamsa for having cruelly, atrociously killed her babies. Then she

compromised by saying that this was not his fault, and then she begged for a

gift. As we learn from the history of the Mahabharata, or "Greater India,"

the wives and daughters of the ruling class, the ksatriyas, knew the

political game, but we never find that a woman was given the post of chief

executive. This is in accordance with the injunctions of Manu-samhita, but

unfortunately Manu-samhita is now being insulted, and the Aryans, the

members of Vedic society, cannot do anything. Such is the nature of

Kali-yuga.

---------

Someone said "Anantarupa Prabhu has already established in this conference

that our management by committee system has no precedent in vedic history".

That's what the ritviks say, and both of them are wrong. We do, in fact,

find in scripture examples of governing legislatures, or bodies of devotees,

who vote and certify that various members are behaving according to their

status:

Formerly, the votes were taken by highly saintly persons, brahmanas. Just

like Prthu Maharaja's father Vena Maharaja. He was disapproved by the

brahmanas and the saintly persons, and immediately he was dethroned and

killed. (Lecture, SB 2.3.19, Los Angeles, June 15, 1972)

Vote should be taken... Just like Krsna. Krsna wanted that Maharaja

Yudhisthira should be on the throne. That is vote. (Lecture, SB 2.3.19, Los

Angeles, June 15, 1972)

October 21, 2000

"Christopher Shannon" <cshannon (AT) mdo (DOT) net>

"guru-krsna das" <afn39393 (AT) afn (DOT) org>

References: <2.2.32.20001021021257.006d6d68 (AT) pop3 (DOT) afn.org>

Re: Here we go again?

Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:31:52 -0400

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