RE: Thread #8 - Comments on the Proposal by Bhaktarupa Das

[Guest guest]

You paint with a very broad brush Sir. It is not Srila Prabhupada's method.

 

 

> I have many problems with your idea of putting ksatriya managers on the

> GBC.

>

> 1. Ksatriyas put projects first. Their major concern is the advancement

> of the institution. Brahmanas" concern is the advancement of the

> individual. Ksatriyas will put developing Mayapur as a higher priority

> than protecting women, children, and cows.

 

 

This is nonsense.

 

 

 

> 2. Ksatriyas tend to gather and control men, land, and money.

 

This is more nonsense. You are talking about men controlled by the mode of

passion, not aspiring daiva-varnasrama ksatriyas.

 

 

> 3. Ksatriyas are not free from false ego.

 

NO ONE is free from false ego in ISKCON though many have thought thusly for

decades. This fallacy should be cleared up first or we are going nowhere.

Lower than the straw in the street is a better motto.

 

 

 

> 4. Ksatriyas can be bought.

 

Prejudiced and segregationist. No practical Vaisnava will fall for this

because they can remember great ksatriyas like Prithu, Dhruva and

Yudhistira.

 

 

> Brahmanas can not be bribed, because they

> don't care about increasing their prestige, fame, wealth, power, men,

> resources, etc. We need people with integrity who cannot be purchased to

> sit on the GBC.

 

 

I hardly know of any so-called brahmanas in ISKCON who have not been bought.

We need people who can first admit they are neither brahmanas or ksatriyas

but who are humbly aspiring to be such in the service of the Lord.

Pretentiousness has always been in vast supply in ISKCON.

 

 

 

> We need the most advanced sadhus to represent Srila

> Prabhupada and Sri Krishna to the world at large.

 

We need time and varnasrama colleges to make some true sadhus. We don't have

any now and that is why we are in this chaos. Otherwise they would have lead

us out of it long ago.

 

 

 

> 5. Brahmanas also manage. They manage ashrams. ISKCON is a federation of

> ashrams (with most of the management at the local level).

 

 

You are not supporting Lord Caitanyas para-upakara as Srila Prabhupada did?

Why be so small in thought? This has insignificant effect. You will create

more cloistered, pretentious charlatan meditators.

 

ISKCON is MUCH more than just asramas. Ther are people of all classes, cows,

bulls, and many other living beings to be provided shelter and protection.

[Guest guest]

Vaiyasaki wrote:

>> I have many problems with your idea of putting ksatriya managers on the

>> GBC.

>>

>> 1. Ksatriyas put projects first. Their major concern is the advancement

>> of the institution. Brahmanas' concern is the advancement of the

>> individual. Ksatriyas will put developing Mayapur as a higher priority

>> than protecting women, children, and cows.

 

Janesvara responds:

>This is nonsense.

 

 

>> 2. Ksatriyas tend to gather and control men, land, and money.

 

>This is more nonsense. You are talking about men controlled by the mode of

>passion, not aspiring daiva-varnasrama ksatriyas.

 

 

First of all this is not a conference to insult devotees. If you have a

different opinion then voice it like a gentleman and present your own

understanding. It is exactly this rude mentality that has destroyed the

purity of Vaishnava relationships that Prabhupada gave his life to teach us.

 

 

>> 3. Ksatriyas are not free from false ego.

 

>NO ONE is free from false ego in ISKCON though many have thought thusly for

>decades. This fallacy should be cleared up first or we are going nowhere.

>Lower than the straw in the street is a better motto.

 

>> 4. Ksatriyas can be bought.

 

>Prejudiced and segregationist. No practical Vaisnava will fall for this

>because they can remember great ksatriyas like Prithu, Dhruva and

>Yudhistira.

 

Secondly, I am referring to 20th century ISKCON and the experiences we have

had with our GBC leaders in the past, not ksatriyas from 5,000 years ago who

will not be able to sit on a restructured GBC. You bounce around from "NO

ONE is free from false ego in ISKCON" to "great Ksatriyas like Prithu,

Dhruva and Yudhistira." But what is your practical proposal to get

Prabhupada's ISKCON back on track today, right now?

 

And I find your insults in bad taste. Please stop. I suggest you try a

cultured approach and present your own remedy if you don't like what others

say.

 

 

>> Brahmanas can not be bribed, because they

>> don't care about increasing their prestige, fame, wealth, power, men,

>> resources, etc. We need people with integrity who cannot be purchased to

>> sit on the GBC.

 

>I hardly know of any so-called brahmanas in ISKCON who have not been

>bought. We need people who can first admit they are neither brahmanas or

>ksatriyas but who are humbly aspiring to be such in the service of the

>Lord. Pretentiousness has always been in vast supply in ISKCON.

 

Can you not find anything good to say at all?????

 

>> We need the most advanced sadhus to represent Srila

>> Prabhupada and Sri Krishna to the world at large.

 

>We need time and varnasrama colleges to make some true sadhus. We don't

>have any now and that is why we are in this chaos. Otherwise they would

>have lead us out of it long ago.

 

Your answer begs the question: If "we don't have any now and that is why we

are in this chaos", then how can we implement varnashram dharma now? I don't

think it is possible to implement VAD if you say there are no qualified

ksatriyas and brahmanas.

 

So kindly try to make a positive suggestion to help restructure the GBC that

relates to the REALITY of today's ISKCON.

 

 

>> 5. Brahmanas also manage. They manage ashrams. ISKCON is a federation of

>> ashrams (with most of the management at the local level).

 

>You are not supporting Lord Caitanyas para-upakara as Srila Prabhupada did?

 

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion! My whole proposal is based

on para-upakara. My preaching has been based entirely on para-upakara for

the last 25 years. If you really advocate para-upakara you can show it by

treating Vaishnavas with respect. We're people too! Otherwise what is the

meaning of your para-upakara -- simply lip service?

 

yours in service, vaiyasaki dasa...

[Guest guest]

> Vaiyasaki wrote:

> >> I have many problems with your idea of putting ksatriya managers on the

> >> GBC.

> >>

> >> 1. Ksatriyas put projects first. Their major concern is the

> >> advancement of the institution. Brahmanas' concern is the advancement

> >> of the individual. Ksatriyas will put developing Mayapur as a higher

> >> priority than protecting women, children, and cows.

>

> Janesvara responds:

> >This is nonsense.

>

>

> >> 2. Ksatriyas tend to gather and control men, land, and money.

>

> >This is more nonsense. You are talking about men controlled by the mode

> >of passion, not aspiring daiva-varnasrama ksatriyas.

>

>

> First of all this is not a conference to insult devotees. If you have a

> different opinion then voice it like a gentleman and present your own

> understanding.

 

 

You drew first blood Prabhu. Your statement,"Ksatriyas will put developing

Mayapur as a higher priority than protecting women, children, and cows." is

a great insult to ksatriya devotees. If you are going to make such harsh

broad statements be ready to defend them and don't try to turn it around

with some sentiment about "insulting". You'll not find me a cowaring

respondent with such words as you use so disparagingly towards ksatriyas.

[Guest guest]

> It is exactly this rude mentality that has destroyed the

> purity of Vaishnava relationships that Prabhupada gave his life to teach

> us.

 

Why is it your initial statements are not considered equally rude and the

cause of a retort of the same nature?

> Ksatriyas will put developing Mayapur as a higher priority

> >> than protecting women, children, and cows.

> >> 4. Ksatriyas can be bought.

[Guest guest]

Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

 

> ISKCON is MUCH more than just asramas. Ther are people of all classes,

> cows, bulls, and many other living beings to be provided shelter and

> protection.

 

Just a small comment here.

 

For a long time there has been an identity crisis in ISKCON. Looking at our

track record many, including myself, doubt whether, as an organization,

ISKCON can ever provide "shelter and protection" to everyone.

 

IN fact, this is not in the original mandate of ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's 7

purposes) but rather the emphasis is on "systematic" education and building

temples (" holy place of transcendental pastimes").

 

I suggest that along with defining the qualities we expect of GBC members

and their job descriptions we must tackle the problem of defining ISKCON's

mandate in respect of the material, social and mental needs of its members.

 

I believe in a more narrowly focussed ISKCON, that encourages parallel

organizations- guided by ISKCON principles, but managerially completely

autonomous - for social development.

 

Your servant,

Pancaratna das

[Guest guest]

Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

 

> ISKCON is MUCH more than just asramas. Ther are people of all classes,

> cows, bulls, and many other living beings to be provided shelter and

> protection.

 

Just a small comment here.

 

For a long time there has been an identity crisis in ISKCON. Looking at our

track record many, including myself, doubt whether, as an organization,

ISKCON can ever provide "shelter and protection" to everyone.

 

IN fact, this is not in the original mandate of ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's 7

purposes) but rather the emphasis is on "systematic" education and building

temples (" holy place of transcendental pastimes").

 

I suggest that along with defining the qualities we expect of GBC members

and their job descriptions we must tackle the problem of defining ISKCON's

mandate in respect of the material, social and mental needs of its members.

 

I believe in a more narrowly focussed ISKCON, that encourages parallel

organizations- guided by ISKCON principles, but managerially completely

autonomous - for social development.

 

Your servant,

Pancaratna das

[Guest guest]

> Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

>

> > ISKCON is MUCH more than just asramas. Ther are people of all classes,

> > cows, bulls, and many other living beings to be provided shelter and

> > protection.

>

> Just a small comment here.

>

> For a long time there has been an identity crisis in ISKCON. Looking at

> our track record many, including myself, doubt whether, as an

> organization, ISKCON can ever provide "shelter and protection" to

> everyone.

>

> IN fact, this is not in the original mandate of ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's

> 7 purposes) but rather the emphasis is on "systematic" education and

> building temples (" holy place of transcendental pastimes").

 

 

I thought Prabhupada was building a house in which everyone could live. Or

is the ISKCON you are speaking of a more referee of sorts? Many other

organizations could be providing the shelter and protection? Would they be

viewed as "outsiders" by ISKCON as has always been the history?

 

 

 

> I suggest that along with defining the qualities we expect of GBC members

> and their job descriptions we must tackle the problem of defining ISKCON's

> mandate in respect of the material, social and mental needs of its

> members.

>

> I believe in a more narrowly focussed ISKCON, that encourages parallel

> organizations- guided by ISKCON principles, but managerially completely

> autonomous - for social development.

> Pancaratna das

 

A narrowly focussed ISKCON, I presume, is a brahminically postured entity

which gives sincere, unpretentious, tolerant, supportive, broad-minded,

non-sectarian, cooperative, collaborative, non-profit, humble advice,

guidance and support to other organizations and individuals who are trying

to present Vedic culture and lifestyles toward the betterment of their

respective members?

 

Sounds like Prabhupada's original mentality!

[Guest guest]

Vaiyasaki wrote:

>> First of all this is not a conference to insult devotees. If you have a

>> different opinion then voice it like a gentleman and present your own

>> understanding.

 

Janesvara answered:

>You drew first blood Prabhu. Your statement,"Ksatriyas will put developing

>Mayapur as a higher priority than protecting women, children, and cows." is

>a great insult to ksatriya devotees. If you are going to make such harsh

>broad statements be ready to defend them and don't try to turn it around

>with some sentiment about "insulting". You'll not find me a cowaring

>respondent with such words as you use so disparagingly towards ksatriyas.

 

Vaiyasaki responds:

 

1. My statement that you quoted above you have taken out of context.

However, we have seen this in modern day ISKCON. Ksatriyas are politicians

and this is true as well in Vedic India. They rule their subjects and

maintain the staus quo. Not only the "demon" ksatriyas try to expand their

empires, even Yuddhistira Maharaja sent out a challenge horse to other

kingdoms; either they accept his rulership or be prepared to wage war. This

is ksatriya mentality. The Mahabharata and Ramayana is full of this ksatriya

mentality. (We do not include Lord Rama or Lord Krishna in this discussion

because They are God, after all)

 

Still, ksatriyas are generally subservient to the sadhus because the

ksatriya desires can be subdued by the inspirational preachers, the

brahmanas. Therefore, brahmanas are in the superior position. My proposal

that we have the topmost sadhus at the pinnacle of ISKCON leadership still

stands.

 

2. You take my statements out of context and then attack me (without

presenting the entire quote in context). This is neither fair nor honest.

 

3. I was writing to Bhaktarupa Prabhu, not to you. You have butted in

making accusations and taking simple statements of philosophy and historical

fact to be insults to ksatriyas. The fact that you took it as a personal

insult and used it as a rationalization to use inflammatory language is

disturbing.

 

4. Your statement about drawing "first blood" (meaning you insulted me

first so now I can insult you back) sounds to me like a childish mentality.

 

5. I never insulted any particular person nor was I even writing to you. So

why have you adopted this position and attacked me? Are you angry?

Frustrated? Are you unable to discuss a subject without losing control?

 

You see, we need leaders who can control their passions and are free from

the desire for profit, adoration, and distinction. You may feel that there

are no such persons in ISKCON, however, I disagree with you because I have

met them.

 

I wrote that "It is exactly this rude mentality that has destroyed the

purity of Vaishnava relationships that Prabhupada gave his life to teach

us." This Vaishnava etiquette is the hallmark of advanced Vaishnavas.

Your reply was:

>Why is it your initial statements are not considered equally rude and the

>cause of a retort of the same nature?

 

Even if I did say something rude (I had no such intention in mind) why do

you feel that you also have to be rude? This mentality is childish, a

perceived tit for tat -- definitely not "giving the benefit of the doubt."

Hardly Vaishnava etiquette. Normally, a person will remain true to his own

nature even if insulted.

 

I'm sorry to speak to you in this way. I could just as soon ignore your

attitude, but my nature is to be helpful (even when attacked).

 

yours in service, vaiyasaki dasa...

[Guest guest]

Vaiyasaki wrote:

>> Your answer begs the question: If "we don't have any now and that is why

>> we are in this chaos", then how can we implement varnashram dharma now? I

>> don't think it is possible to implement VAD if you say there are no

>> qualified ksatriyas and brahmanas.

 

Janesvara answered:

>You may not think so but Prabhupada did. it does not take "qualified"

>brahmanas and ksatriyas to follow the order of the spiritual master. His

>instructions make it simple:

>

>Satsvarupa Goswami: Srila Prabhupada, this is all very new. It seems that

>there will be many difficulties if we try to start this.

>

>Srila Prabhupada: What is difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is there

>any difficulty?

>

>Satsvarupa Goswami: No.

>

>Srila Prabhupada: And similarly like that. I am doing that. I am teaching

>how to mop the floor.

>

>Satsvarupa Goswami: It becomes easy. VAD morning walks 1974.

 

Vaiyasaki responds:

Janesvara prabhu, you did it again. You quoted out of context. Here is the

rest of the conversation:

 

Satsvarupa Goswami: It becomes easy.

Prabhupada: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

Hrdayananda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varnasrama, say, the

first teacher at the varnasrama college, then I have to also become expert

at how to fight, how to...

Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of

fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required,

you can fight. I say that we are above all these varnasrama, but we must

train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under

these divisions.

Visnujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brahmanas that are very

expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

 

So Prabhuapda IS saying "I must know everything because I am a teacher." He

does answer Hrdayananda's question about being expert, "some of you must

be."

 

You are presenting that it does not take "qualified" brahmanas and ksatriyas

to institute varnashrama dharma college, yet Srila Prabhupada presents that

it does take qualified expert devotees in each field.

 

So can we stop these nonsense arguments and agree to work together

harmoniously (as Prabhupada ordered us to do?)

 

yours in service, vaiyasaki dasa...

[Guest guest]

> So Prabhuapda IS saying "I must know everything because I am a teacher."

> He does answer Hrdayananda's question about being expert, "some of you

> must be."

 

 

So you are now taking it out of context or you simply do not understand

Prabhupada's words. He said some of them must LEARN the art of fighting. Not

that they knew it right then. They must train. They must BECOME expert. Not

that we wait until they become expert or learn the military art through some

other means and THEN we start varnasrama colleges. No. Start the varnasrama

colleges NOW and everyone can learn particular skills for the management of

ISKCON and become expert.

 

No one in ISKCON "knows everything" right now. Obviously. Look around. And

Prabhupada's so-called senior devotees who we were all told were advanced

sadhus never followed these instructions and most fell far, far down.

 

 

 

 

> So can we stop these nonsense arguments and agree to work together

> harmoniously (as Prabhupada ordered us to do?)

 

Gee, actually I was beginning to enjoy them!

 

Harmony will only take place in ISKCON when pretentiousness bloops.

[Guest guest]

Janesvara wrote:

>This is just too much to listen to. We have been hearing this stuff from a

>certain segment of ISKCON for decades and yet we have only the current

>state of despicable and criminal affairs by the hundreds to show for our

>"sadhus". Get off it. Get real for once. Where is the contrition, my

>God???!!!

>

>We are the lowest. No, Prabhupada said we are not even that good. We are

>lower than the straw in the street. We have no attraction for the Holy

>Names (even though the Lord has made approaching Him easy by them...).

 

Vaiyasaki responds:

You just don't get it. Prabhupada taught us to think this way about

ourselves not about others. You use the word Prabhu but you have no

understanding what it means. Prabhupada taught us to see each other as

sadhus and using the term Prabhu means you are the servatn and the others

are the master. This is Vaishnava etiquette.

But you keep harping on varnashrama dharma whithout any realization that

there can never be varnashrama dharma without Vaishnava etiquette.

 

Until you accept Prabhupada's instructions to implement Vaishnava etiquette

I, for one, will no longer listen to your varnashrama dharma tirades.

 

I will be away and offline for a week, so you needn't respond to this as I

will not see it. Besides I joined this conference to hear constructive ways

to reestablish Prabhupada's ISKCON, not to get embroiled in useless

arguments that only go in circles and accomplish nothing.

 

Can you respect my desire to stop this argument, or will you go on ad

infinitum?

[Guest guest]

> Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

>

> > ISKCON is MUCH more than just asramas. Ther are people of all classes,

> > cows, bulls, and many other living beings to be provided shelter and

> > protection.

>

> Just a small comment here.

>

> For a long time there has been an identity crisis in ISKCON. Looking at

> our track record many, including myself, doubt whether, as an

> organization, ISKCON can ever provide "shelter and protection" to

> everyone.

>

> IN fact, this is not in the original mandate of ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's

> 7 purposes) but rather the emphasis is on "systematic" education and

> building temples (" holy place of transcendental pastimes").

>

> I suggest that along with defining the qualities we expect of GBC members

> and their job descriptions we must tackle the problem of defining ISKCON's

> mandate in respect of the material, social and mental needs of its

> members.

>

> I believe in a more narrowly focussed ISKCON, that encourages parallel

> organizations- guided by ISKCON principles, but managerially completely

> autonomous - for social development.

 

This is an excellent suggestion. We should add it to our comprehensive

proposal.

 

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

[Guest guest]

Yes this is what his Divine Grace wanted and ordered. Each temple,

ashram, farm, community etceteras was to be set up separate and have at

least 10 men for the temple before installing the deity if my

recollection serves me well. All working together to bring Krsna

consciousness to that local area becoming a pillar of vaisnavism through

simple living and high thinking.

 

Bijaya Kumara das

 

Pancaratna ACBSP wrote:

>

> Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

>

> > ISKCON is MUCH more than just asramas. Ther are people of all classes,

> > cows, bulls, and many other living beings to be provided shelter and

> > protection.

>

> Just a small comment here.

>

> For a long time there has been an identity crisis in ISKCON. Looking at our

> track record many, including myself, doubt whether, as an organization,

> ISKCON can ever provide "shelter and protection" to everyone.

>

> IN fact, this is not in the original mandate of ISKCON (Srila Prabhupada's 7

> purposes) but rather the emphasis is on "systematic" education and building

> temples (" holy place of transcendental pastimes").

>

> I suggest that along with defining the qualities we expect of GBC members

> and their job descriptions we must tackle the problem of defining ISKCON's

> mandate in respect of the material, social and mental needs of its members.

>

> I believe in a more narrowly focussed ISKCON, that encourages parallel

> organizations- guided by ISKCON principles, but managerially completely

> autonomous - for social development.

>

> Your servant,

> Pancaratna das

[Guest guest]

> But you keep harping on varnashrama dharma whithout any realization that

> there can never be varnashrama dharma without Vaishnava etiquette.

 

You may be a great Vaisnava. If so, my humble obeisances to you. I, for one,

am not even close to being a Vaisnava. It is a very great accomplishment and

one which I am willing to invest many, many more births to attain. These are

my spiritual masters recommendations as the result of my unfortunate birth.

 

I cannot just exhibit Vaisnava etiquette instantly. I need varnasrama-dharma

to cleanse me like my spiritual master has advised:

 

"Ultimately the aim of varnasrama-dharma is to turn a crude man into a pure

devotee of the Lord, or a Vaisnava." SB 1.2.2

 

>From ISKCON I have never been given support in this most important endeavor

and dharma as prescribed by my guru who unfortunately left my world before I

could even meet him face to face. His vani has become my most cherished

treasure.

 

I think there are many, many more human beings who lack many higher

qualities though they desire them and they know that varnasrama-dharma is

the Lord's proposal and institution to restore those qualities in them. Your

proposal seems to be that we all become Vaisnavas first, then we can take up

varnasrama-dharma. This is the opposite of Krsna's advice and, of course, is

impossible.

 

"The Vedic system of varna and asrama is never to be neglected because these

divisions are created by the Supreme Lord Himself for the upkeep of social

and religious order in human society. The brahmanas, as the intelligent

class of men in society, must be avowed to steadily respect this regulative

principle." SB 4.6.44

 

The so-called brahmanas of ISKCON have neglected this regulative principle

and the members have suffered tragically. The sinful reactions will be

suffered by the so-called brahmanas ten-fold.

 

Prabhupada never neglected this principle and practically begged us to

implement it after his departure. From the day he first sat down in Tompkins

Square Park as a daiva varnasrama sannyasi with danda until the day he left

saying there was only implementation of varnasrama remaining to be fulfilled

he was the Lords most confidential servant in his conviction to enable the

purification of all human beings through the divine institution of

varnasrama-dharma, or sanatana-dharma.

 

You seem so anxious to play the "insulting" and "Vaisnava etiquette" card as

soon as someone challenges your opinions. Personally I find many of your

opinions insulting to me and others who have a more practical, humble and

level-headed approach to their lives than you preach. Perhaps you are not as

pretentious as I imagine for I am a crude man, but your words resemble too

closely the remnants of past ISKCON "leaders" who are now far away after we

were told they were the stalwarts of "Vaisnava etiquette" only to find out

that they were the biggest cheaters of all. I hope I am wrong about you, sir

(I do not know what Prabhu means, so I will not use that word with you).

 

 

> Until you accept Prabhupada's instructions to implement Vaishnava

> etiquette I, for one, will no longer listen to your varnashrama dharma

> tirades.

 

That is your personal right.

 

> Can you respect my desire to stop this argument, or will you go on ad

> infinitum?

 

If you do not want to argue do not respond to my comments. This is a place

for free and open discussion. Even between crude men and Vaisnavas.