No women in management positions

[Guest guest]

Krishna Kirtan Mataji wrote as follows:

 

> I have not found anything consistent in the 7th canto to substantiate

> Syamasundara prabhu's previous statement about women not being GBC, except

> verses 25 to 29 of chapter 11.

 

Thank you very much for the references. These verses say nothing about what

kinds of things a woman is not allowed to do. Provided she serves her

husband as described in these verses, nothing is said to prevent her from

doing any other kind of activity. It doesn't even say in these verses that

every woman must get married!

 

> So, we may venture to say that according to

> the varna lines described in this 11 chapter she could certainly assist

> her qualified manager husband but certainly not become independant as a

> 'chief executor'. (See further explanations concerning this term in

> quotes, in other texts in this conference.)

 

We have to be careful about too much extrapolation on the statements in

Krishna Kirti Prabhu's text. In general, in those statements Srila

Prabhupada is commenting on the situation in modern day external society,

and he is recommending that the karmis should at least follow Manu-samhita

by not having women chief executives for India (at the time Indira Gandhi

was Prime Minister in India). Srila Prabhupada is never quoting the

Bhagavatam to make this point. How much those particular statements are

relevant to ISKCON has to be carefully considered.

 

> However, the wonderful book called "Vaisnavi" and compiled by Satyaraja

> Prabhu is highly edifying in this regard. On note 34 of page 110 one can

> read: "In addition to the undeniable high position afforded to great

> Vaisnava queens and other female epic figures (see Nandarani dasi, 'how a

> krsna conscious woman achieved liberation: a queen of vedic india found

> freedom in dependence,' back to godhead 15, n°10, 1980) the Caitanya

> Movement itself provides good examples in Jahnava, the wife of Nityananda

> and a guru in her own right, and Gangamata Goswamini, a celibate devotee

> from the following generation who inspired many vaisnavas in Orissa (see

> Satyaraj,"Great Vaisnava Women," Back to Godhead 24 no10, 1989, 8-12)

>

> So, Bhaktarupa Prabhu, if you choose the Bhagavat lines against the

> Varnasram lines then you would also have to allow women the possibility to

> become diksa-guru:

 

Certainly.

 

> (Sri guru

> and His grace, San Jose, CA: Guardian of devotion press, 1983, 23)

 

Taking the dust of all the vaishnavas on my head, it is very unfortunate

that you have posted this [deleted] text. If someone wants to cast

aspersions on the realization of our predecessor vaishnavas and vaishnavis

that is their business, but it should not be repeated again. This is Gaudiya

Math politics and I find it quite distasteful.

 

> "further, when A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was asked if a woman can become a

> guru in disciplic succession, he responded: 'yes. Jahnava Devi was.

> Nityananda's wife. She became. If she's able to go to the highest

> perfection of life, why it is not possible, to become guru?' in

> conversation with Srila Prabhupada (Los Angeles: Bhaktivedanta Book Trust,

> 1990, vol 22, Toronto, 6.18.76, pp19-20."

 

We can certainly accept this statement by Srila Prabhupada at its face

value.

 

> I have personally met some women in ISKCON that are more advanced and more

> qualified than some ISKCON gurus. So, should they also be allowed to give

> initiation? What about to women alone?

 

This is a management decision. Those who attempt to categorize it as a

matter already proscribed by scriptural injunction are mistaken.

 

Let's first take care of those who want to argue this point on the basis of

scripture. If they are unable to convince us then whoever is left over can

start to discuss the management pros and cons.

 

But we should use caution when discussing from a management angle that we

discuss each different role separately -- guru, GBC, TP, etc.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das

[Guest guest]

> > So, we may venture to say that according to

> > the varna lines described in this 11 chapter she could certainly assist

> > her qualified manager husband but certainly not become independant as a

> > 'chief executor'. (See further explanations concerning this term in

> > quotes, in other texts in this conference.)

>

> We have to be careful about too much extrapolation on the statements in

> Krishna Kirti Prabhu's text. In general, in those statements Srila

> Prabhupada is commenting on the situation in modern day external society,

> and he is recommending that the karmis should at least follow Manu-samhita

> by not having women chief executives for India (at the time Indira Gandhi

> was Prime Minister in India). Srila Prabhupada is never quoting the

> Bhagavatam to make this point. How much those particular statements are

> relevant to ISKCON has to be carefully considered.

>

 

Why, then, would Srila Prabhupada make these references to great, liberated

ladies like Devaki? She isn't a karmi.

[Guest guest]

>From Bhaktarupa's text:

 

|> "further, when A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was asked if a woman can become a

|> guru in disciplic succession, he responded: 'yes. Jahnava Devi was.

|> Nityananda's wife. She became. If she's able to go to the highest

|> perfection of life, why it is not possible, to become guru?' in

|> conversation with Srila Prabhupada (Los Angeles: Bhaktivedanta Book Trust,

|> 1990, vol 22, Toronto, 6.18.76, pp19-20."

|

|We can certainly accept this statement by Srila Prabhupada at its face

|value.

 

I also heard a similar statement. I don't have a means right now to look up

the exact wording, but this is the essence:

 

Q: Can a woman become a spiritual master too?

 

A: Yes, it is possible. Like Jahnava-devi. She was the wife of Nityananda

Prabhu. She became guru. So, it is possible -- but it is not very likely.

 

ys

SRd