Guest guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 Dear Bhakta Rupa Prabhu, PAMHO AGTSP > Shyamasundara Prabhu wrote as follows: > > > Does this mean real varnashrama dharma the way Srila Prabhupada meant it > > to be and is explained in the Sastras like Srimad Bhagavatam > > (especially 7th canto) and Manu Samhita, or "new age" varnashrama > > dharma? In "new age" varnashrama dharma as is presently practiced by the > > GBC women are leaders (GBC, TPs etc), in real Varnashrama Dharma they > > are not. > > 1. I am surprised that you are giving the GBC credit for practicing even > false varnasrama dharma. Last I heard they didn't even want to give > lipservice to such an idea! > I admit defeat. > 2. Just for the record, can you please give the quote(s) from Srimad > Bhagavatam which exclude women from taking the role of GBC or TP? Since > Anantarupa Prabhu has already established in this conference that our > management by committee system has no precedent in vedic history it would > be good to start with a sound sastric basis. > > Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das Though originally invited by Sriram Prabhu to join this conference I did not because of very busy schedule especially when I saw the quantity of texts involved. I only stuck my nose in when a text was forwarded to me in which I was quoted by Vaiyasaki Prabhu. That done I got off the conference. However, recently because of email problems Sriram asked me to forward that last text to this conference. After doing that service I again got off the conference. But since my name was there as the sender all the responses were bounced to me even though I am not on the conferences (GBC related) even now as I type. I rarely use pamho now, nor do I plan to use it more in the future. For the above reasons I will keep my answer to you request brief, though it is deserving a greatly detailed answer. First of all let us look at you initial inquirey: > Just for the record, can you please give the quote(s) from Srimad > Bhagavatam which exclude women from taking the role of GBC or TP? This is of the neti-neti catagory, by that I mean indirect definition. Indirect definition is not conclusive, as Hiranyakashipu will attest. Let us first speak in general prinicples and then proceed to particulars.It could be argued that if I can't find a sastra pramana that tells me not to do something I should therefore be allowed to do it. Considering the vast nature of this material world it would be literaly impossible to include every possibility. For example: LSD, coffee, tea and various modern day intoxicants are not to be found in Sastra. Therefore it could be argued that Brahmanas can take these things since there is no injunction in the sastras regarding these substances since they are not even mentioned. However, there is a *direct* description in the sastras about what the life style and duties of a Brahmana should be. Therefore by knowing what the duties of a Brahmana should be it will be easy to deduce that indulgence in such substances is against the sva-dharma of a brahmana. To the point in hand the sastra (SB 7.11.25-29 complete quote below) does describe the sva-dharma of women which is to serve her vaisnava husband and family. A woman's duties in her husband's ashrama to her husband and children are not trivial but rather a fulltime occupation. Krsna explains in Gita (Bg 18.45-46 quote below) that to achieve perfection in this life a person, in whatever position, should simply perform their (not someone else's) prescribed duties as an offering to the Lord. On the other hand Krsna has also explained in the Gita (not once but twice in 3.35 & 18.47 quote below) that doing someone else's duty is *dangerous* and is affected by *sinful reactions*. If you want to discuss this point further I am sure that Nayana Ranjana Prabhu and others will be willing to continue. For myself this is as much time as I have for this matter. If you would want to read more on this issue you can contact me privately at my personal email: shyama (AT) shyamasundaradasa (DOT) com Your humble servant Shyamasundara Dasa Full quotes to texts cited. "It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous." Bg 3.35 "By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done. By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, a man can attain perfection through performing his own work." BG 18.45-46 "It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one's nature are never affected by sinful reactions." BG 18.47 SB 7.11.25-29 TEXT 25 TEXT strinam ca pati-devanam tac-chusrusanukulata tad-bandhusv anuvrttis ca nityam tad-vrata-dharanam SYNONYMS strinam-of women; ca-also; pati-devanam-who have accepted their husbands as worshipable; tat-susrusa-readiness to render service to her husband; anukulata-being favorably disposed towards her husband; tat-bandhusu-unto the friends and relatives of the husband; anuvrttih-being similarly disposed (to treat them well for the satisfaction of the husband); ca-and; nityam-regularly; tat-vrata-dharanam-accepting the vows of the husband or acting exactly as the husband acts. TRANSLATION To render service to the husband, to be always favorably disposed toward the husband, to be equally well disposed toward the husband's relatives and friends, and to follow the vows of the husband-these are the four principles to be followed by women described as chaste. PURPORT It is very important for peaceful householder life that a woman follow the vow of her husband. Any disagreement with the husband's vow will disrupt family life. In this regard, Canakya Pandita gives a very valuable instruction: dampatyoh kalaho nasti tatra srih svayam agatah. When there are no fights between husband and wife, the goddess of fortune automatically comes to the home. A woman's education should be conducted along the lines indicated in this verse. The basic principle for a chaste woman is to be always favorably disposed toward her husband. In Bhagavad-gita (1.40) it is said, strisu dustasu varsneya jayate varna-sankarah: if the women are polluted, there will be varna-sankara population. In modern terms, the varna-sankara are the hippies, who do not follow any regulative injunctions. Another explanation is that when the population is varna-sankara, no one can know who is on what platform. The varnasrama system scientifically divides society into four varnas and four asramas, but in varna-sankara society there are no such distinctions, and no one can know who is who. In such a society, no one can distinguish between a brahmana, a ksatriya, a vaisya and a sudra. For peace and happiness in the material world, the varnasrama institution must be introduced. The symptoms of one's activities must be defined, and one must be educated accordingly. Then spiritual advancement will automatically be possible. SB 7.11.26, SB 7.11.27, SB 7.11.26-27 TEXTS 26-27 TEXT sammarjanopalepabhyam grha-mandana-vartanaih svayam ca mandita nityam parimrsta-paricchada kamair uccavacaih sadhvi prasrayena damena ca vakyaih satyaih priyaih premna kale kale bhajet patim SYNONYMS sammarjana-by cleaning; upalepabhyam-by smearing with water or other cleansing liquids; grha-the household; mandana-decorating; vartanaih-remaining at home and engaged in such duties; svayam-personally; ca-also; mandita-finely dressed; nityam-always; parimrsta-cleansed; paricchada-garments and household utensils; kamaih-according to the desires of the husband; ucca-avacaih-both great and small; sadhvi-a chaste woman; prasrayena-with modesty; damena-by controlling the senses; ca-also; vakyaih-by speech; satyaih-truthful; priyaih-very pleasing; premna-with love; kale kale-at appropriate times; bhajet-should worship; patim-her husband. TRANSLATION A chaste woman must dress nicely and decorate herself with golden ornaments for the pleasure of her husband. Always wearing clean and attractive garments, she should sweep and clean the household with water and other liquids so that the entire house is always pure and clean. She should collect the household paraphernalia and keep the house always aromatic with incense and flowers and must be ready to execute the desires of her husband. Being modest and truthful, controlling her senses, and speaking in sweet words, a chaste woman should engage in the service of her husband with love, according to time and circumstances. SB 7.11.28 santustalolupa daksa dharma-jna priya-satya-vak apramatta sucih snigdha patim tv apatitam bhajet SYNONYMS santusta-always satisfied; alolupa-without being greedy; daksa-very expert in serving; dharma-jna-fully conversant with religious principles; priya-pleasing; satya-truthful; vak-in speaking; apramatta-attentive in service to her husband; sucih-always clean and pure; snigdha-affectionate; patim-the husband; tu-but; apatitam-who is not fallen; bhajet-should worship. TRANSLATION A chaste woman should not be greedy, but satisfied in all circumstances. She must be very expert in handling household affairs and should be fully conversant with religious principles. She should speak pleasingly and truthfully and should be very careful and always clean and pure. Thus a chaste woman should engage with affection in the service of a husband who is not fallen. PURPORT According to the injunction of Yajnavalkya, an authority on religious principles, asuddheh sampratiksyo hi mahapataka-dusitah. One is considered contaminated by the reactions of great sinful activities when one has not been purified according to the methods of the dasa-vidha-samskara. In Bhagavad-gita, however, the Lord says, na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah: [bg. 7.15] "Those miscreants who do not surrender unto Me are the lowest of mankind." The word naradhama means "nondevotee." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu also said, yei bhaje sei bada, abhakta-hina [Cc. Antya 4.67], chara. Anyone who is a devotee is sinless. One who is not a devotee, however, is the most fallen and condemned. It is recommended, therefore, that a chaste wife not associate with a fallen husband. A fallen husband is one who is addicted to the four principles of sinful activity-namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. Specifically, if one is not a soul surrendered to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is understood to be contaminated. Thus a chaste woman is advised not to agree to serve such a husband. It is not that a chaste woman should be like a slave while her husband is naradhama, the lowest of men. Although the duties of a woman are different from those of a man, a chaste woman is not meant to serve a fallen husband. If her husband is fallen, it is recommended that she give up his association. Giving up the association of her husband does not mean, however, that a woman should marry again and thus indulge in prostitution. If a chaste woman unfortunately marries a husband who is fallen, she should live separately from him. Similarly, a husband can separate himself from a woman who is not chaste according to the description of the sastra. The conclusion is that a husband should be a pure Vaisnava and that a woman should be a chaste wife with all the symptoms described in this regard. Then both of them will be happy and make spiritual progress in Krsna consciousness. TEXT 29 ya patim hari-bhavena bhajet srir iva tat-para hary-atmana harer loke patya srir iva modate SYNONYMS ya-any woman who; patim-her husband; hari-bhavena-mentally accepting him as equal to Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; bhajet-worships or renders service to; srih iva-exactly like the goddess of fortune; tat-para-being devoted; hari-atmana-completely absorbed in thoughts of Hari; hareh loke-in the spiritual world, the Vaikuntha planets; patya-with her husband; srih iva-exactly like the goddess of fortune; modate-enjoys spiritual, eternal life. TRANSLATION The woman who engages in the service of her husband, following strictly in the footsteps of the goddess of fortune, surely returns home, back to Godhead, with her devotee husband, and lives very happily in the Vaikuntha planets. PURPORT The faithfulness of the goddess of fortune is the ideal for a chaste woman. The Brahma-samhita (5.29) says, laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam. In the Vaikuntha planets, Lord Visnu is worshiped by many, many thousands of goddesses of fortune, and in Goloka Vrndavana, Lord Krsna is worshiped by many, many thousands of gopis, all of whom are goddesses of fortune. A woman should serve her husband as faithfully as the goddess of fortune. A man should be an ideal servant of the Lord, and a woman should be an ideal wife like the goddess of fortune. Then both husband and wife will be so faithful and strong that by acting together they will return home, back to Godhead, without a doubt. In this regard, Srila Madhvacarya gives this opinion: harir asmin sthita iti strinam bhartari bhavana sisyanam ca gurau nityam sudranam brahmanadisu bhrtyanam svamini tatha hari-bhava udiritah A woman should think of her husband as the Supreme Lord. Similarly, a disciple should think of the spiritual master as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a sudra should think of a brahmana as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and a servant should think of his master as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In this way, all of them will automatically become devotees of the Lord. In other words, by thinking this way, all of them will become Krsna conscious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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