The part I hate: Two kinds of vaisnava exchange on the Web

[Guest guest]

Once I found this letter below on the Web and as a “itching” service I sent it

to a forum so that members can read what is going on in the general vaisnava

community. See how the conversation went on with supposed pandits.

 

Dear Reader,

The GBC Executive Committee invites you to respond to the following

announcement and to forward it to any other interested devotees. --Kalakantha

dasa

 

"The GBC Executive Committee (EC) acknowledges ongoing concerns among ISKCON

members about the role and position of diksa and siksa gurus in ISKCON. [---]

=================

Someone named Janardan responded: “Sounds like they're looking for new and

better ways to make their rubber-stamp guru ideology more palatable. Just one

question: Why do *masters* need input from the hoi polloi? Hare Krishna! [---]

 

“Nice reply Jandardan prabhu” wrote Mahes Raja, “these GBC athiests so-called

gurus must be short of customers—daksina and give the idiot some name--and

take away ALL his money--bas! Let the idiot go on serving-the self made

"guru". [---] The clear message is FOLLOW Srila Prabhupada---or else be

DOOMED!”

=====================

I was new on this forum, so the Pit Bull wrote back: “Is this kind of

argumentation allowed on Vaisnava Synod forum? I think Pragosh Prabhu (from

Montreal) is the moderator and I know him to be a gentleman. Mahes Raja may be

right or wrong but that is definitely not the language used in a vaisnava

assembly. Akhiles”

 

(Nara Narayan das) Dear Akhiles prabhu, I am always intrigued when someone

says that "you cannot immitate Srila Prabhupada". It makes me want to ask

you....."what is it that you want from Srila Prabhupada's movement, and more

vitally, what is it that you intend to contrubute?" It would be very nice to

see this synod "imitate Srila Prabhupada" by voicing only his views, rather

than personal ones that do not reflect much interest in spiritual matters. In

such an arena, this "crackers and water" fare would turn into a vast Prasadam

Feast. We should be afraid of nothing! Better to be accused of "imitating

Srila Prabhupada" than to be mistaken for someone other than His disciple. I

fully encourage all living entities to take EXTREME RISKS in the urgent

preaching of Krishna Katha even from the moment that one hears the word "Hare

Krishna" just once.

Your eternal servant,

 

I wrote back: “You cannot imitate Srila Prabhupada and you cannot insult

others on a public forum. Please, say whatever you want to say with

philosophical arguments but don't insult. You will just increase hate in this

way. Akhiles”

 

Narayan: “Please take into account that Srila Prabhupada referred to one of

his godbrothers whom Sridhara maharaja and other stalwarts had ELECTED to be

"acharya" of the Gaudiya Matha (against the express wishes of their Guru

Maharaja) as "THE JACKAL VASUDEVA".

 

Do you object to the language of Mahesh Raja as being "slander"?....... Mahesh

Raja prabhu is not known to use words lightly. He does good reasearch and

backs his conclusions with shastra. WHY NOT DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT HIS

CHARGES THAT THESE "gurus" are in fact "duskritina mudha" BEFORE taking

exception to the accusation of this erudite scholar?

Your eternal servant, Nara Narayan das”

 

Akhiles: You are wellcome to speak the truth but not to insult in an assembly

of devotees. You may do that with your

friends in private if this is the kind of association that enlivens you, but

not in public. Please, don't argue that Srila Prabhupada is backing up your

manners.

 

 

(The moderator)

Haribol prabhus,

I am not loggerheading with anyone here, or trying to engage in some debate.

Just a few words of comment here. Srila Prabhupada did use strong language on

a few occasions. BUT, he did not practice strong language ALL the time. Nor

did he teach us to use strong language constantly. Especially in the assembly

of Vaisnavas and godbrothers, we were not taught to speak with sharp words.

[---] ys visoka dasa

 

Seeing that the moderator has not been convinced, Narayana write this:

“Dear Vishoka prabhu,

FYI, Srila Prabhupada also indulged in the following:

1. He called his godbrother Vasudeva, "The jackal Vasudeva"

2. He called Swami Bonn, " Rectum not rector, Black Monkey, and Gorilla."

3. Etc.

 

I agree that we should speak within the bounds of courtesy, but if a case is

to be made that can be proven, then stronger language can be seen as

appropriate. We are not just scholars, but apostles. As such, we have a stake

in the truth being established, and the fake being uprooted. that is the basic

standard of the preacher. One cannot preach and not take sides!

Your eternal servant, Nara Narayan das

 

> It makes me want to ask you....."

 

You can ask me any question and I will try to answer you according to my

realization. The only problem with your or Mahes’s education -that he says

getting from Srila Prabhupada- is that if I don't agree with your statement,

you will start insulting me. That is your way for expressing your ego and

that’s what you are defending as a legitimate form of expression amongst true

vaisnavas, since Prabhupada did it. I can't go for that. If I accord you a

discussion, you have first to promise not insulting me or any other person who

don’t share your point of view. When I joined this forum I read the

guidelines, therefore I wanted to participate. There was no restriction to

where devotees came from. It was said that any devotee could come and speak

his ideas, if done in a civil manner. But how can they speak if you are

insulting them? I did not joined Vaisnava Council because it was clear there

that the members have strong opinions on their beliefs. Therefore here, on a

Vaisnava Synod, a public forum, you cannot insult people from other faith, or

because there are black, women or homosexuals. Worse, you cannot insult

vaisnavas from other institutions. You wrote: "We should be afraid of

nothing!" This is a great qualification, but others may be afraid. Help them

by your courage not by insult them when they don't follow you. Imagine that in

different vaisnava circles, I am hearing the same language that you are

holding, but against people like you! (In theses days it was on VNN forum.

Ironicaly they closed the forum a few weeks after I decided at last to join.)

Imagine that if all vaisnava factions were speaking the same way that you are

doing! Can you see the result? It is a primitive social order: the stronger

one wins; not by arguments but by violence. Srila Prabhupada was against that.

Dear Narayana and Mahes, I am not making this exchange a personal affair.

Wherever I go amongst devotees, the first thing I demand, if I see that they

are fighting, is that they conduct themselves as gentlemen. Otherwise, I

appreciate very much your desire when encouraging "all living entities to take

EXTREME RISKS in the urgent preaching of Krishna Katha even from the moment

that one hears the word "Hare Krishna" just once." There is a difference

however between "encouraging" and "forcing" others. If I hear you once more

insulting other devotees, I will not read your messages any longer. And if the

moderator tolerate blasphems on this forum I will leave it. That is what I

learn from Srila Prabhupada.

 

Narayana wrote: “Your eternal servant, Nara Narayan das Servant?”

 

Akhiles: Friend is better to my taste. But if you insist to be my servant,

tell immediatly Mahes raj to stop insulting others. Akhiles

 

PS. After that I was banished from the forum. You see dear Babhru, that may

sound like an extreme case but that’s what I experience most of the time with

devotees. And you know? No one said anything. To tell you the truth, I am

quite astonished to be able to speak the way I do on COM. I owe that to Mukhya

and Raktambara Prabhus. But I remember the time, not so far, when most

devotees were pressuring ISKCON leaders to silence people like me by expulsing

them from COM. That’s not totalitarism yet. I wonder what it is going to

happen with this new merging; Raktambara wrote: “My intention was not to scare

people. For now, you don't need to do anything, everything remains as it was.

We will not make any steps hastily. First the Web login has to there, and the

joint cooperation with iskcon.com and krishna.com has to be a fact, and then I

will contact all conference organisers and we will see together how to proceed

in such a way that everyone will be satisfied.”

[Guest guest]

At 11:02 AM 1/25/02 -1000, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote:

>Once I found this letter below on the Web and as a "itching" service I sent it

>to a forum so that members can read what is going on in the general vaisnava

>community. See how the conversation went on with supposed pandits. . . .

>PS. After that I was banished from the forum. You see dear Babhru, that may

>sound like an extreme case but that's what I experience most of the time with

>devotees. And you know? No one said anything. To tell you the truth, I am

>quite astonished to be able to speak the way I do on COM. I owe that to Mukhya

>and Raktambara Prabhus. But I remember the time, not so far, when most

>devotees were pressuring ISKCON leaders to silence people like me by expulsing

>them from COM. That's not totalitarism yet. I wonder what it is going to

>happen with this new merging; Raktambara wrote: "My intention was not to scare

>people. For now, you don't need to do anything, everything remains as it was.

>We will not make any steps hastily. First the Web login has to there, and the

>joint cooperation with iskcon.com and krishna.com has to be a fact, and then I

>will contact all conference organisers and we will see together how to proceed

>in such a way that everyone will be satisfied."

 

I suggest that it's foolish to say, "We should fear NOTHING." We should all

fear vaishnava apradaha. That will bury any progress we may have made in

our spiritual endeavors. I've heard ISKCON GBC members aver, when this is

suggested, that "We are confident that Srila Prabhupada will forgive us for

any offenses we may make in our efforts to save ISKCON." This is a

supremely foolish attitude, which demonstrates ignorance of our principles.

Srila Prabhupada may forgive offenses we commit against him. But not even

the Supreme Personality of Godhead can forgive offenses against other

vaishnavas. The evidence is plentiful in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri

Chaitanya-charitamrita,and Chaitanya Bhagavata.

 

As for what's in the future for COM (PAMHO, or whatever), I'm not too

concerned. I'm mostly grateful for the facility to communicate with other

devotees, but I have other avenues as well,and I don't depend very much on

ISKCON any more to provide opportunities for service. I know that many

devotees will go through some sort of withdrawal. But I'll keep up with my

chanting, worship, and meager attempts to share what little I understand of

Krishna consciousness with others.

 

Babhru

[Guest guest]

By the way, that last email got three hot peppers from my mood indicator. :-)

 

Babhru