More about so-called misunderstandings from Krishna Kirti about Manu

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> > This is again most misleading. We must avoid sinful life, this is true,

> but

> > in order to avoid sinful life we must follow the rules appropriate to

> > our status of life. Manu and Yajnavalkya were unaware of the glories of

> > the

> holy

> > name, so if someone is chanting even namabhas then how are their rules

> > applicable?

>

> Manu is a Mahajana. How could a Mahajana not be aware of the glories of

> the holy name? Manu is very much aware of the glories of the holy name -

> moreso than you or I.

 

Are you referring to the list of 12 manajanas given in the sixth canto? The

Manu referred to here is Svayambhuva Manu, the first Manu. He's definitely

not the author of Manu-samhita.

 

In any case, if Sri Manu Rishi, the author of Manusamhita, is aware of the

glories of the holy name, then please provide a quote where he describes

those glories. And if he was aware of their glories then why did he go to so

much trouble to describe all the processes of atonement?

 

> Regarding namabhas - Ajamila is an excellent example of chanting the

> Lord's name in namabhas. The effect was that besides freeing him from the

> reactions of his sinful activities, he actually was able to give up his

> sinful life. So Ajamila also fits the description of Bhagavad-gita 7.28,

> as he was freed from sinful life and its reactions.

>

> But I would hesitate to call Ajamila a sadhana-siddha, it seems like he

> would better be considered a kripa-siddha. For us sadhana-bhaktas, we do

> have to follow regulative principles, refrain from sinful activity (our

> vows), etc. The below reference nicely describes our general program of

> sadhana and service:

>

> "Only those who have passed their lives in practicing the regulative

> principles of religion, who have acted piously and who have conquered

> sinful reactions can accept devotional service and gradually rise to the

> pure knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Then, gradually,

> they can meditate in trance on the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is

> the process of being situated on the spiritual platform. This elevation is

> possible in Krsna consciousness in the association of pure devotees, for

> in the association of great devotees one can be delivered from delusion."

> (BG 7.28 purport)

>

> Verse 7.28 is therefore relevant to the everyday lives of ISKCON

> sadhana-bhaktas. The kripa-siddhis can do as they like.

 

Agreed. But what does this have to do with Manu Samhita? Please forgive my

failure to see the connection.

 

> > > Of course, it can always be said that these have nothing to do with

> > > pure devotional service, but then who among us is a pure devotee?

> >

> > This is most irrelevant and thus again misleading. One does not need to

> > be on some lofty high platform in order to be beyond the rules of

> > karmakanda. One who chants even a dim reflection of the holy name is

> > freed from all

> sin.

>

> Irrelevant to what? Your comment misses the point I made, which was an

> observation that many, if not most, devotees in our movement are not

> factually liberated from the bodily conception of life. As such, their

> sadhana will either be favorably or adversely affected by their

> environment. In this regard, institutions like marriage and a judicial

> system contribute to a favorable environment. Manu-samhita simply gives

> guidance w/ regard to managing these institutions. Nothing misleading

> here.

 

I don't think I missed your point. You were attempting to establish that

unless one is a highly elevated pure devotee he is conditioned by material

nature, thus he has to follow the same rules that the karmis have to follow.

This is just not true. If one is initiated and chanting then even if he is

still conditioned he is not obligated to follow the karmakandiya rules, but

rather he must follow the rules for bhakti sadhikas given in the bhakti

sastras. Our marriage and judicial systems are different systems than the

karmakandiya systems of the same name, although they appear similar in many

ways.

 

> > > Sri Manu's

> > > mercy on is in the form of his instructions is to help keep us pure

> > > and free from sin so we can make progress in devotional service.

> >

> > Grossly misleading. His writings are not at all intended for those

> > engaged in devotional service.

>

> Srila Prabhupada quoted not infrequently from Manu-samhita. You may say

> that not all of Manu-samhita is intended for devotees (like the section on

> attonement), but you certainly cannot say none of it is applicable to

> devotees.

 

Where it happens to coincide with the vaisnava smritis then it is

applicable. Otherwise maybe not.

 

> That will depend on how much we understand the books Srila Prabhupada has

> given us. If we don't understand Srila Prabhupada's books, how will we

> understand anything else, what to speak of Manu-samhita? "Books are the

> basis". Of course, I'm stating the underlying theory.

>

> Practically there should be some group of devotees who have some

> demonstrated competency and familiarity with the body of Srila

> Prabhupada's literature. They should also have some knowledge of

> Sanskrit, as devotees should not be completely dependent on a tranlation

> made by a scholar who may or may not himself be a devotee.

>

> A further suggestion is that whoever takes up this task (if anyone takes

> it up), a good literature to start with would be Hari-bhakti-vilasa. In

> HBV, Sanatana Goswami has made exhaustive references to many and various

> different Vedic scriptures, including Manu-smriti.

 

Yes, we want to see where the two classes of smritis intersect. Very good

suggestion.

 

Your servant, Bhaktarupa Das