Amnesty for sannyasis

[Guest guest]

Bhaktarupa (das) ACBSP wrote:

 

>

>

> Your basic proposal was for making a special amnesty for those who wanted

> to leave sannyas in order to continue in management. Now you are

> suggesting that this desire to engage in management in ISKCON is

> equivalent to wanting to engage in sex life for sense gratification.

 

 

My proposal was based on the premise that there is such thing

as *shame and dishonor* in ISCKON sannyasis' giving up their

asrama, as in practice in these couple of decades. Thus the

suggestion for amnesty, to let things get reexamined and sorted

out, in the light of the new circumstances, before actual fall-downs

would occur, was placed.

You, however, have presented the position according to which

there isn't actually real shame and dishonor in sannyasis'

giving up their asram, that it is some misconception based

on some karmakandiya smriti principles that we don't follow.

So, I objected it, and I *stuck* to my premise that there

_is_ a shame in sannyais' giving up their asrama (as an ongoing

practice in ISCKON). So how am I now inconsistent?? Please explain.

 

 

Actually, I think you missed to give an additional qualificatory

explanation of your position that Srila Prabhupada has already

declared an general "amnesty" to ISCKON sannyasis, and that it

is not a dishonor for a sannyasi to break his oaths and give up the

ashrama. Yours simply "informing" us how it's there somewhere in the

purports of the 8th Canto, sorry, but that isn't exactly explaining

us much, does it?

 

So basically, I questioned/challenged your position, and you

replied with attempting me look as inconsistent in my "amnesty"

proposal. Even if I was, still, it is not any valid argument that

would support the mentioned position of yours. That "amnesty"

proposal of mine will never fly anyway, but it's of importance

how do we understand these very issues that we are taking an

active role in promoting them into practice.

 

 

> >

> > BTW, do we agree at all that there is such thing as a fall-down

> > of a sannyasi? (Just to be sure)

>

> A devotee falls down if he leaves the service of Krishna and the spiritual

> master. This is the only kind of fall down that we really care about. But

> I did state clearly that a sannyasi leaving the sannyas asrama often

> causes harm to the preaching mission.

 

What is the fall-down of a devotee, is not in dispute.

You are reading "sannyasi" as "devotee". On that way, it is

the end of any varnasrama talk. Just substitute "devotee"

for any varna and asrama, and see where you will end up in

your practical application of VAD system.

 

OK, maybe you do not really care if sannyasis are falling down

from their asrama. Fine. It's your private choice what to really

care about, and what not to. But please do not think this to be

understood and accepted as some proper universal ISCKON understanding.

 

 

> But braking the vows given to Guru and Krsna...???

> > That _is_ a shame and a dishonor.

>

> What exactly are the vows taken by a sannyasi at the time of sannyas

> initiation? In order to answer your question we would need to have solid

> information about this, which I don't have right now. Perhaps someone can

> help with this.

 

Well, if you don't know what exactly the vows of a sannyasi we are

having on mind here, then I would suggest that you better not be so

convinced how giving up these same vows is not a shame nor a dishonor.

First define them, and then give your opinion on it. Not the way

around.

 

But let me give a shot. Here, we talk about the vow of **complete

celibacy**, in particular. To be observed for the rest of the life.

Now, somebody gives this promise to his Guru-Maharaja and to God. And

then he marries, gets kids and a family and a household... Please

explain how this is not dishonorable for a sannyasi. Is it then

honorable, perhaps?

 

 

You also said, "later for preaching sannyas can also be given up".

Now, could you please tell us how many ex-sannyasis in ISCKON do

you know that have given up sannyas "for preaching" purposes?

Can you please explain to us *why* it would be needed for an ISCKON

sannyasi to give up his sannyas "for preaching"? What situation

would be that? Who was the latest sannyasi in ISCKON who was asked

to break his given oaths to Guru&Gauranga, "for preaching purposes"?

Any?

 

 

 

------------------------

 

> We have failed miserably to actually institute the kind of system desired

> by Srila Prabhupada. Let's fault the application, not the basic system.

 

What exactly "kind of system" do you talk about?

 

If, by some chance, that is varnasramadharma system, then how

shall we possibly institute it while in the same time rejecting

the sticking to its basic principles as some karmakandiya smrti

that we are above obligation/need to follow. If we really do not

care that sannyasis do not follow their sva-dharma (by giving it

up all together). Yet, in the same time, here we ask and expect

from sannyasis to follow their sva-dharma and get off the GBC.

 

 

 

 

- mnd