who is a demon-functioning in society again

[Guest guest]

PAMHO,AGTSP!

 

I very rarely read conference texts these days but i was browsing through a

present discussion on this one and noticed references to the word "asura" or

demon.

I too have found in Iskcon that we tend to label non-devotees as demons and

i do not think that is very fair or necessary. Yes, there are many people

who according to the chapter in Gita fall into the category of asuric but

there are many who are just ignorant about higher spiritual principles and

are indeed different to those who are vehemently opposed to spiritual life.

 

I have been in iskcon for 9 years and part of my "training" is that I have

been told to disrespect non devotees, to not trust them and not to associate

with them. This has led to a paranoia and inability to function properly in

the outside world.

 

Many devotees have had to leave temples and face the outside world again and

because of the mindsets instilled in them, they have become even more

dysfunctional than before. Iskcon authorities sometimes fail to prepare

individuals to function properly outside and this has resulted in many fall

downs and some even drifting away from KC altogether.

 

To conclude, we were all like those who we speak against in Bhagavatam

class. Now we are fortunate enough to be able to chant and take prasada and

those that we ignore and denounce are not. It is not good preaching to be

constantly giving sermons on the horrors of the material world because we

are all living in it until we become pure devotees and we have to learn how

to deal with that. We sometimes create a little bubble or comfort zone for

ourselves, both individually and collectively and this is not healthy as it

is not facing up to one very important reality. There will come a time when

most of us will have to get jobs, interact with non devotees for buisiness

or some other reason and if we give off paranoia and other such distasteful

vibes then they will pick up on this and conclude that we are sectarian and

wierd. I think they are doing this already and that our PR is already up the

tube........

 

I have much to say on this issue but i am just opening up for discussion and

seeing the view points of others. Please forgive my rudeness for interupting

this discussion but i feel that my points are valid and very relevant to the

present hour.

I hope you are all well

 

ys

zac

[Guest guest]

Be in the world not of it. There is good reason to not associate with

those of which we use to be and this means not in a worldly sense. You

need to associate with those of which we used to be so that they may be

uplifted by your instruction and association. The reason we need the

protection of our god brothers and sisters is for good reason. They are

looking out for our best interests but that does not mean you loose your

own ability to reason and think for yourself. His Divine Grace says

that any one in the material world is asuric and that is why we are here

and this is a very terrible place of which it is. There is nothing good

here other than the devotees but even the devotee must leave this place,

marta loka.

 

You have never been told to disrespect anyone and if you have they need

your correction. Be humbler than a blade of grass showing respect to

all others and expecting nothing in return and in this frame of mind

continuously chant the holy names of the Lord and we may some day become

a devotee.

 

Your well wishing servant,

 

Bijaya Kumara das

 

"(Temple) Govindadwipa (Ireland)" wrote:

>

> PAMHO,AGTSP!

>

> I very rarely read conference texts these days but i was browsing through a

> present discussion on this one and noticed references to the word "asura" or

> demon.

> I too have found in Iskcon that we tend to label non-devotees as demons and

> i do not think that is very fair or necessary. Yes, there are many people

> who according to the chapter in Gita fall into the category of asuric but

> there are many who are just ignorant about higher spiritual principles and

> are indeed different to those who are vehemently opposed to spiritual life.

>

> I have been in iskcon for 9 years and part of my "training" is that I have

> been told to disrespect non devotees, to not trust them and not to associate

> with them. This has led to a paranoia and inability to function properly in

> the outside world.

>

> Many devotees have had to leave temples and face the outside world again and

> because of the mindsets instilled in them, they have become even more

> dysfunctional than before. Iskcon authorities sometimes fail to prepare

> individuals to function properly outside and this has resulted in many fall

> downs and some even drifting away from KC altogether.

>

> To conclude, we were all like those who we speak against in Bhagavatam

> class. Now we are fortunate enough to be able to chant and take prasada and

> those that we ignore and denounce are not. It is not good preaching to be

> constantly giving sermons on the horrors of the material world because we

> are all living in it until we become pure devotees and we have to learn how

> to deal with that. We sometimes create a little bubble or comfort zone for

> ourselves, both individually and collectively and this is not healthy as it

> is not facing up to one very important reality. There will come a time when

> most of us will have to get jobs, interact with non devotees for buisiness

> or some other reason and if we give off paranoia and other such distasteful

> vibes then they will pick up on this and conclude that we are sectarian and

> wierd. I think they are doing this already and that our PR is already up the

> tube........

>

> I have much to say on this issue but i am just opening up for discussion and

> seeing the view points of others. Please forgive my rudeness for interupting

> this discussion but i feel that my points are valid and very relevant to the

> present hour.

> I hope you are all well

>

> ys

> zac

[Guest guest]

Dear Bijaya Kumara Prabhu

PAMHO,AGTSP!

 

Thanks for your response to my article. I wish to reply to some statements

of yours starting with the following:

 

"

You have never been told to disrespect anyone and if you have they need

your correction. Be humbler than a blade of grass showing respect to

all others and expecting nothing in return and in this frame of mind

continuously chant the holy names of the Lord and we may some day become

a devotee."

 

-To make a statement like "I have never been told to disrespect anyone"

without even knowing me, which temples i have stayed in or which classes i

have attended is a little premature. It is not that i have been directly

told to disrespect anyone so much but rather, the content of most Bhagavatam

classes in Iskcon generally veers towards disrespecting non-devotees and

these days, devotees who are in another math etc.....

We hear things regularly such as "those karmi's", "demoniac mentality" etc..

etc... I also have spoke to people personally who have visited Iskcon

temples and they felt the devotees were too much and made them scared cause

they were not following 4 regs and chanting etc......

 

Now you tell me-what sort of preaching is that? Sometimes, potential

Bhaktas/Bhaktins attend morning programme and hear statements such as the

above and feel mortified and start to hate their parents, cutting them off

and generally developing a sense of paranoia towards non-devotees. I need

not remind you that iskcons public relations are at its worst and here in

Ireland, i was interviewed for a radio show because a newspaper ran a

survey and asked the public what were the things they disliked the most-the

devotees came 2nd on the list.

 

The public do not accept us as much as we would like because we act so damn

wierd at times and treat others wierdly too and you cannot deny that- we are

totally out of place and expect others to see that we are normal and they

are not? Until we adapt a little more and come across a little better then

what is the question of doing what Prabhupada really wanted us to do?

Respiritualise society at large! No one is going to join iskcon if we keep

on with the cultish image, behaviour and elitist attitudes that we have at

present. It is way out of line and scares people off!

 

We cannot go around criticizing people to each other just because they are

not in iskcon etc...... "Vaco vegam etc.."

 

Ultimatly we have to learn a sense of respect for all living beings as Krsna

is in the heart as supersoul. There are many instances when Prabhupada would

receive guests of all types and he would treat them very cordially and we

should do the same, in class and outside of class. Take Dr Steven

Covey(7habits) for instance. Many,many devotees took his classes and were

appliying techniques from such and there could have been a nice bit of

networking going on there between the 2 organizations, but i have personally

been in classes where Sanyassis and GBC's have blasphemed him and some

people were very upset about this. He was blasphemed because he is not a

devotee. This is called abuse!

 

You also mentioned that If i do get told or hear blasphemy then i should

correct the person. I know from bitter experience that one who is a lowly

bhakta cannot get away with pointing out defects in others senior to him as

this causes problems with temple authorities and one gets labeled as a

trouble maker.

 

Overall, we need to change our paradigms and attitudes. If we see things

negatively, then we will attract negativity.As devotees, we should be more

merciful than we are. Not that mercy just means that we do book distribution

or other missionary activities, i think that nowadays real mercy means that

we somehow live in the outside world and show by example that we are nice

people and are functional not DISFUNCTIONAL. If we warm to non devotees more

then they will naturally warm to us. By our very example we will be giving

association as you mentioned, but that does not mean that we just try by any

means to make people chant and give up anarthas immediatly. We have to be

much more subtle than that and stop being fanatic and scared that we might

get contaminated all the time. If we are sincere, then Krsna will protect

us.

 

I know devotees who are now going to collage and have regular jobs who have

made friends with non devotees and it can be clearly seen that the

friendship is producing some purification and slowly the persons befriended

are becoming more devotional and that their consciousness is changing. This

is because the devotees accepted the persons as persons and not as demons

who need to be cleansed of their sins.

 

I am not going to carry on because this is a very deep and serious issue and

we can go backwards and forwards quoting sastra until the cows come home. To

conclude i think that our general approach needs to be changed-we cannot go

around bashing the Gita on peoples heads anymore and we cannot bash it on

our own heads either. This is a very gradual and step by step process.

Because we have created little bubbles around ourselves, we think that we

have advanced and look down on others and scare them away with our subtle

energies. Do you think that non devotees are not able to feel what we give

out? I sure did when i first came to a temple-it was like "stay away from

him!!!!!!!!!!!" and when i joined it was only after a few months that

devotees started to see that i was okay and "one of them".

 

I think it is about time that we grew up, had a rethink and change our

approach to the process aswell as others-who ever they may be. Then

Prabhupada will be happy and iskcon will flourish again.

 

Hope you are well

ys

zac