narayana-para veda includes Manu-samhita

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Svarupa Prabhu commented on my earlier text:

 

> > What is this mysterious middle ground which is higher than aspiration

> > for one's own pleasure, but which is not bhakti?

 

Thank you for your nice comments, which are reproduced below. The above

statement of mine has to be considered in light of the context of the entire

discussion which has been going on, which started out as a challenge of my

use of the term "asuri varnasrama" to describe any practice of varnasrama

principles in which aspiration for the pleasure of Lord Vishnu was not

anything more than incidental. My statement above is simply pointing out

that either the desire for one's own pleasure, local or extended, is the

focus of one's life or the desire for Krishna's pleasure is the focus.

Obviously there are those who are progressing gradually from one to the

other and for which it would be difficult to say definitively which category

they are in. There are always different ways of looking at a subject and

different kinds of categories any subject matter can be broken down into. I

was not trying to prove that it was wrong to look at the subject in another

way, I was only trying to demonstrate that there was some value in seeing it

theoretically from a somewhat black and white perspective, and thus justify

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur's use of the term in that black and white way

in his preaching against the smartas. In spite of all the gradations given

in this particular section of the Gita, the Vedas still describe only five

goals of human endeavor: dharma, artha, kama, moksa, and prema.

 

I will also make some detailed comments below.

 

> Maybe the twelfth chapter of Bhagavad-gita could give a clue.

>

> Bg 12.9) My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind

> upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of

> bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me.

>

> Bg 12.10) If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then

> just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the

> perfect stage.

>

> Bg 12.11) If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of

> Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be

> self-situated.

>

> Bg 12.12) If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in

> the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is

> meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of

> action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind.

>

> -----------

>

> As I see it there are also some valuable instructions in the Vedas about

> how to behave as a human being. If one thinks that human behaviour is not

> anything one has to worry about if one is a devotee and consider that such

> instructions are only meant for the sensegratifiers then maybe one should

> consider a little deeper the words of the Lord in the twelfth chapter of

> Bhagavad-gita.

 

This is not at all my intention. There are definite rules for the behavior

of human beings who have accepted initiation into vaisnavism. Mostly they

are the same as the rules for the karmis, but there are some important

differences. The consequences of not following the respective rules of

behavior after initiation are **more severe** than the consequences of not

following the rules meant for karmis: na vidyate tasya yamaih hi suddhih

(Padma Purana, 7th offense in chanting).

 

> Bg 12.13-14) One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living

> entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false

> ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always

> satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with

> determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me; such a devotee of

> Mine is very dear to Me.

>

> Bg 12.15) He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not

> disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and

> anxiety, is very dear to Me.

>

> Bg 12.16) My devotee who is not dependent on the ordinary course of

> activities, who is pure, expert, without cares, free from all pains, and

> not striving for some result, is very dear to Me.

>

> Bg 12.17) One who neither rejoices nor grieves, who neither laments nor

> desires, and who renounces both auspicious and inauspicious things; such a

> devotee is very dear to Me.

>

> Bg 12.18-19) One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in

> honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and

> infamy, who is always free from contaminating association, always silent

> and satisfied with anything, who doesn’t care for any residence, who is

> fixed in knowledge and who is engaged in devotional service; such a person

> is very dear to Me.

>

> ---------

>

> The question is if we are pleasing the Lord with our behaviour or not. If

> we are not pleasing the Lord then what is the question of bhakti. How can

> there be bhakti if we are not treating other living entities with respect

> and care.

>

> Maybe we are not such advanced devotees. Maybe we also need some guidance

> in how to behave as human beings. If we are putting others into

> difficulties and sees others in terms of friends and enemies and is very

> much affected by fame and infamy and at the same time is very concerned

> about cousy living facilities and is not satisfied with just sleeping on

> the floor in the brahmacari ashram then maybe the Vedas also have

> something to give to us also.

>

> The Vedas are meant to elevate us to human beings and from there we can

> elevate further to spiritual platforms. But if we think that we don't have

> to worry so much about becoming human beings but just have to chant Hare

> Krishna and eat prasadam then I am not so sure that it always will work

> out for us in our endeavors to develop love (or bhakti) for the Lord.

 

Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but taking the above

paragraph at face value I would have to disagree with it. Bhakti can elevate

even sub-humans to the spiritual world without the following of any Vedic

injunction. Can you please clarify your statement?

 

Of course, as initiated devotees we should behave according to the norms of

behavior given by guru, sadhu and sastra. But even if someone is not able to

follow the norms of human behavior but is chanting sincerely then

*everything* will certainly come by the mercy of the holy name.

 

Your servant, Bhaktaupa