RE: GGM and Never leave ISKCON

[Guest guest]

At 10:01 PM 3/4/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>GGM was a very unique person, and I don't know if it was quite correct to

>list him with NM and Sridhara Swami as people who had been villified. To

>begin with, 'villified' is an incredibly strong word.

 

Well, despite all the nice things said about him in public, especially

after his passing, I heard several GBC members repeatedly say that he was

"off" and that he was a pain in the neck. They did whatever they could to

blunt his influence in several areas. After his passing, he suddenly became

a pure devotee. Some godbrothers wondered aloud if it was necessary to die

to become accepted by the GBC.

 

I've never been much of an insider, but the closer I've gotten to the

"inner circles," the more uncomfortable I've become.

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

At 05:43 AM 3/4/02 -1000, Babhru (das) ACBSP (San Diego - USA) wrote:

>Well, despite all the nice things said about him in public, especially

>after his passing, I heard several GBC members repeatedly say that he was

>"off" and that he was a pain in the neck. They did whatever they could to

>blunt his influence in several areas. After his passing, he suddenly became

>a pure devotee. Some godbrothers wondered aloud if it was necessary to die

>to become accepted by the GBC.

 

I remember that well. They were afraid of his increased influence and the

growing sentiment by some of his disciples that he should be put in a more

prominent place in the ISKCON hierarchy. They even had a committee go and

talk with GGM privately to try to assess whether he was encouraging this

view. There was a great deal of backroom politics about what to do with him

- until he died. Then, as Babhru said, he "became" a "pure devotee" and now

the date of his departure is even on our calendar.

 

I too have seen many of his ex-followers gravitate towards NM. I think that

has something to do with why they were attracted to GGM in the first place;

both are/were elderly life-long vaisnavas, without any history of the fall

downs or scandals that have plagued ISKCON. Some of these ISKCON devotees

had had 2 or even 3 ISKCON gurus and wanted to place their trust in someone

who was likely to stay, and probably who -in some ways- reminded them of

Prabhupada.

Madhu

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Babhru (das) ACBSP (San Diego - USA) wrote:

(re: H.H. Gauragovinda Maharaja)

> Well, despite all the nice things said about him in public, especially

> after his passing, I heard several GBC members repeatedly say that he was

> "off" and that he was a pain in the neck. They did whatever they could to

> blunt his influence in several areas.

 

Even in the seventies, I'd gotten the impression that he was more

or less exiled in Bhubaneshwar, without any facilities (quite literally,

in the beginning). No one was ever sent there to help him. Whatever exists

for ISKCON in Orissa is his credit. If he was a "pain in the neck for the

GBC," that's possibly just evidence of his (perhaps contrasting) maturity,

and genuine spiritual advancement. He certainly encouraged his disciples'

guru-nistha (what else is he supposed to do?), which also speaks of his grasp

of the siddhanta, though God knows hardly anything is more agitating to

materialists than guru-bhakti.

 

Once, Srila Prabhupada went to see some godbrothers, along with

H.H. Tamalakrsna Gosvami, who made some gesture of fealty to guru (I don't

recall now exactly what it was). When Prabhupada's godbrothers appreciated

Tamalakrsna Gosvami's devotion to his guru, Prabhupada said to them, "See how

nicely he has assimilated our siddhanta?" I think this statement confirms

not only Tamalakrsna Gosvami's assimilation of siddhanta, but also the

opinion of our great mahajana, bhakta Prahlada, that this *is* our

siddhanta (as per Bhagavata, 7.5.32):

 

"Unless they smear upon their bodies the dust of the lotus feet of a

Vaisnava completely freed from material contamination, persons very much

inclined toward materialistic life cannot be attached to the lotus feet of the

Lord, who is glorified for His uncommon activities. Only by becoming Krsna

conscious and taking shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord in this way can

one be freed from material contamination."

 

Srila Prabhupada cites this verse regularly.

 

H.H. Narayana Maharaja used to praise the guru-nistha of ISKCON

devotees, possibly to win their confidence, but I haven't heard him do so

recently.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

At 06:09 AM 3/5/2002 +1000, Braja wrote:

> > him - until he died. Then, as Babhru said, he "became" a "pure devotee"

> > and now the date of his departure is even on our calendar.

>

>Actually, with respect, I don't think you are really able to say that he

>'became' a 'pure devotee', as it indicates that he wasn't before - and he

>may well have been, which is not for either you or I to judge. That's a

>rather precarious statement to make - perhaps such an estimation is

>acceptable from Gour Govinda Maharaj's godbrother, but from a granddisciple

>of Srila Prabhupada, it might be pushing the envelope in the etiquette

>department, and may well be approaching grave offensiveness, and I'm sure

>you don't want to do that.

 

It's just how it appeared to happen; one day, he was sometimes a thorn in

their side because he was so firm in his positions, some of which didn't

jibe with the official GBC position, and the next day he was flawless. This

was the observation of many devotees I know (and I don't get around very much).

 

Babhru

[Guest guest]

At 01:07 PM 3/4/02 -1000, Babhru (das) ACBSP (San Diego - USA) wrote:

>It's just how it appeared to happen; one day, he was sometimes a thorn in

>their side because he was so firm in his positions, some of which didn't

>jibe with the official GBC position, and the next day he was flawless. This

>was the observation of many devotees I know (and I don't get around very

>much).

 

That was my experience too. Obviously, I don't believe that was in fact the

case, which is why I put "became" in quotation marks.

Madhu

[Guest guest]

#> At 10:01 PM 3/4/2002 +1000, you wrote:

> >GGM was a very unique person, and I don't know if it was quite correct to

> >list him with NM and Sridhara Swami as people who had been villified. To

> >begin with, 'villified' is an incredibly strong word.

>

> Well, despite all the nice things said about him in public, especially

> after his passing, I heard several GBC members repeatedly say that he was

> "off" and that he was a pain in the neck. They did whatever they could to

> blunt his influence in several areas.

 

Exactly. I met him in the beginning of the ninetees in Italy (Villa

Vrndavan) I very much enjoyed his association and took the time there to

invite him for a visit to Berlin. He kindly agreed and visited us two times.

In 1994 we got a letter from our GBC who said that Gour Govinda Maharaja was

not allowed to enter any temples in his zone. The same year GGM's disciple

called and informed us about his guru next visit. We felt so bad, couldn't

tell him the truth and used an excuse (told him that he can't come since we

are in the middle of closing our temple, what was the truth but not an

obstacle). Still I personaly feel indebted that I could never clearify this

with him.

 

Y.s. Hariballabha dd

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Mukhya (dd) (Ruiselede - BE) wrote:

> GGM has said that the lack of qualified

> gurus is no excuse for leaving either, whenever we are ready Krsna will

> provide such gurus in ISKCON. Actually, he said much more beautifully. You

> have to cry in your heart for Krsna's mercy, then the Lord will reveal to

> you His external manifestation.

 

Thank you for sharing such mature and profound realizations. I

think this also applies equally to those who would like to be qualified

for practicing raganuga-sadhana. What a glorious thing, if someone can

come to that level and cry for Krsna's Divine grace. The unfortunate fact

is that most of us argue over our heads a great deal of the time, since we

haven't yet even fully assimilated the basic "ABCs of spiritual life." To

say nothing of Srimad Bhagavatam or Caitanya-caritamrta, even the

Bhagavad-gita is actually meant for sages and kings, who can actually

understand it, by practical assimilation. Mlecchas and yavanas will usually

have to remove their deficiencies first, which may be why we've been taught

about bhakty-abhasa by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. I suspect many of us

will just have to eat such karma in the spirit of "tat te 'nukampan

susamiksamo" until we are purified of our prarabdha-karmas.

 

It's also true that no one who isn't materially exhausted will

be able to take the full benefit of a bonafide guru's teachings. This is

suggested (among many other places) in Mundakopanisad, 1.2.12:

 

"Having surveyed all the worlds acquired through karma, a brahmana

should come to this sense of disgust: 'There's nothing here that isn't but

the result of (mine or someone else's) karma; so what's the point in merely

adding more karma? Thus, to realize what's behind all this, and with

sacrificial sticks in hand (i.e., being ready to serve menially) one should

go to the guru who is well-versed in the Vedas and practically fixed in

brahman realization."

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Just cleaingin up my mail box given that I"ve bveen off line for much of the

last couple years have this collection of post from over the years all of

which are constructive, gentlemently and informative. Thank you for being

such a nice presence on the net.

 

raghu

 

Applied.Krishna.Consciousness (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Applied.Krishna.Consciousness (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of M. Tandy

Friday, June 07, 2002 2:04 PM

Applied Krishna Consciousness

Re: GGM and "Never leave ISKCON"

 

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002, Mukhya (dd) (Ruiselede - BE) wrote:

> GGM has said that the lack of qualified gurus is no excuse for

> leaving either, whenever we are ready Krsna will provide such gurus in

> ISKCON. Actually, he said much more beautifully. You have to cry in

> your heart for Krsna's mercy, then the Lord will reveal to you His

> external manifestation.

 

Thank you for sharing such mature and profound realizations. I

think this also applies equally to those who would like to be qualified for

practicing raganuga-sadhana. What a glorious thing, if someone can come to

that level and cry for Krsna's Divine grace. The unfortunate fact is that

most of us argue over our heads a great deal of the time, since we haven't

yet even fully assimilated the basic "ABCs of spiritual life." To say

nothing of Srimad Bhagavatam or Caitanya-caritamrta, even the Bhagavad-gita

is actually meant for sages and kings, who can actually understand it, by

practical assimilation. Mlecchas and yavanas will usually have to remove

their deficiencies first, which may be why we've been taught about

bhakty-abhasa by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. I suspect many of us will just

have to eat such karma in the spirit of "tat te 'nukampan susamiksamo" until

we are purified of our prarabdha-karmas.

 

It's also true that no one who isn't materially exhausted will be

able to take the full benefit of a bonafide guru's teachings. This is

suggested (among many other places) in Mundakopanisad, 1.2.12:

 

"Having surveyed all the worlds acquired through karma, a brahmana

should come to this sense of disgust: 'There's nothing here that isn't but

the result of (mine or someone else's) karma; so what's the point in merely

adding more karma? Thus, to realize what's behind all this, and with

sacrificial sticks in hand (i.e., being ready to serve menially) one should

go to the guru who is well-versed in the Vedas and practically fixed in

brahman realization."

 

MDd