RE: Discussion and Philosophy

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2002, Jahnu (das) (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

> > However, unlike anyone I've ever seen or heard of in ISKCON,

> > Bali ordered his disciple not to worship the Supreme Personality of

> > Godhead.

> He was after all a demon

Actually, this was my mistake; it was Bali's guru, Sukra.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

> Thanks. Last I heard she was in the X-ray lab. I'll let you know

> what's up.

 

Lets all remember to pray to Lord Nrsimhadeva for her welfare.

 

ys, Jahnu das

[Guest guest]

At 04:48 PM 3/5/2002 +1000, Jahnu (das) (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

> > Thanks. Last I heard she was in the X-ray lab. I'll let you know

> > what's up.

>

>Lets all remember to pray to Lord Nrsimhadeva for her welfare.

 

Thank you all very much. She has called out before for Lord

Nrishinghadeva's protection, and she's very dedicated to Lord Jagannath.

She has Bhagavad-gita and other books at the hospital, as well as her japa

beads.

 

All I know so far is that she has some head trauma and several broken

bones, and has had the beans knocked out of her--lots of nasty bruises. She

was riding her bicycle to an early-morning class, and some jerk ran her

over with his car--and took off. I haven't had a chance yet to check on a

police report.

 

Thanks again for your love and your prayers.

 

Babhru

[Guest guest]

At 09:54 PM 3/5/02 -0800, Madhumati (dd) ACBSP (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

>Yes! I was recently informed of this very point! So many devotees quote the

>above as coming from Srila Prabhupada, when it actually came from one of his

>disciples.

 

 

I think it's in the Lilamrta. Wasn't it based on a Chinese saying? Does

anyone here have folio?

Madhu

[Guest guest]

> In fact ISKCON is the only one of the 'new' religions that has been

> able to weather the storm that came after the demise of their founding

> fathers. I would like to suggest that when we observe ISKCON and its

> devotees we adopt a broader and more historical perspective. We cannot

> see what is going on in ISKCON if our vision is clouded by personal

> resentments and old grudges.

 

very important point. i hope devotees can read this text with a broad mind

and try to understand what you are saying.

 

the wole text was just excellent and pl keep writing. thankyou.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

ys, bb.

[Guest guest]

> Can I just ask a small question... What is the purpose of the conference,

> and how did it start? I don't remember joining this conference (not that I

> mind) - it just suddenly happened.

 

Ignore me; I'm stupid.

 

-Rama

[Guest guest]

At 10:07 PM 3/5/2002 -0800, Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley, CA -

USA) wrote:

>At 09:54 PM 3/5/02 -0800, Madhumati (dd) ACBSP (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

> >Yes! I was recently informed of this very point! So many devotees quote the

> >above as coming from Srila Prabhupada, when it actually came from one of his

> >disciples.

>

>

>I think it's in the Lilamrta. Wasn't it based on a Chinese saying? Does

>anyone here have folio?

>Madhu

 

 

A devotee wrote it in Chinese characters. There are two places in VedaBase

where Srila Prabhupada says, "Books are the basis of our movement." In one

letter, he wrote, "Purity is the force, and if the people in general notice

that we are clean both inside and outside that is to our credit." I can

find no evidence in VedaBase that we can attribute the other two to Srila

Prabhupada

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

At 12:03 PM 3/6/2002 +0000, Rama Kesava (das) BVTS (Edinburgh - UK) wrote:

> > Well, that brings up a minor detail. The conference's members haven't yet

> > clearly defined its purpose. We discussed why we'd like it named this way

> > but didn't go any further. So I'd like to invite respectful, reasoned

> > discussion of the conference's purpose, in the hope that we can develop

> > some sort of consensus. Nota bene: I hope all members will participate and

> > will respect others' opportunity to express their opinions. If one or two

> > members insist on dominating the conference, we won't achieve what most of

> > us hope to.

>

>Can I just ask a small question... What is the purpose of the conference,

>and how did it start? I don't remember joining this conference (not that I

>mind) - it just suddenly happened.

 

It started out two or three years ago as an adjunct to a conference

exploring possibilities for reforming ISKCON's GBC. Somehow, it more

recently changed form.

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

At 09:29 AM 3/6/2002 -0800, Madhumati (dd) ACBSP (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

> > Can I just ask a small question... What is the purpose of the conference,

> > >and how did it start? I don't remember joining this conference (not that

> > >I mind) - it just suddenly happened.

 

>I wonder what we're accomplishing here. If I'm to continue as a member,

>which I'm seriously questioning at this point, I'd like to feel that there

>is a focus, something tangible that we can accomplish. Otherwise, I'm more

>practically engaged in all the other services I've taken on.

>

>What are the goals? Can we come up with some kind of mission statement? What

>can we do here that would push on this movement that Srila Prabhupada worked

>so hard for? If there are no answers to these questions, I suggest that this

>conference be closed for the time being.

 

Well said. I feel pretty much the same way, which is one reason I tried to

do a nose count and poll members regarding their expectations for this

conference. If we can define a discrete purpose for this conference by

consensus and use it to accomplish those ends, I'm willing to continue

serving the members as an organizer. Otherwise, I also have plenty to keep

me busy, between my job, my sadhana, my attempts to help develop the

Krishna consciousness movement, and my domestic duties. So far, only a

handful of members have made helpful responses, and I don't see any

progress being made in this regard.

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

Babhru:

> All I know so far is that she has some head trauma and several broken

> bones, and has had the beans knocked out of her--lots of nasty bruises.

 

I hope that everything will be okay with her now. She sounds like a

wonderful daughter. Lucky man.

[Guest guest]

At 02:59 PM 3/6/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Babhru:

> > All I know so far is that she has some head trauma and several broken

> > bones, and has had the beans knocked out of her--lots of nasty bruises.

>

>I hope that everything will be okay with her now. She sounds like a

>wonderful daughter. Lucky man.

 

For those who are wondering, here's the tally: left ankle broken in two

places, broken left leg (lower), broken left clavicle, concussion (she had

amnesia for a few hours), bruises, scrapes, etc. all over the place.

 

She's pretty tough. Along with her sadhana (her daily worship of Lord

Jagannath at 4:30am, at least four rounds of japa, and reading from

bhakti-shastra), her job, and her classes at mesa College, she runs, bikes,

and swims just about every day. Lying on her back in a hospital bed is

driving her stir-crazy.

 

Thanks for all the kind thoughts.

 

Your aspiring servant,

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

Dear devotees,

 

The following text, by Jahnu Prabhu I rate (silly my rating!!) it the best

text on COM, so far that I have come across in year 2002. Many might have

had a quick glance only. I request you (if you can) to go through it

scrutinizingly. In my humble opinion it is very very important for all

ISKCONIANS. I earlier commented about it, but forgive me for drawing your

attention once again.

 

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

 

> Sorry for the wise-guy routine. It's more a pattern over many years

> than any specific problems. They include, however, the parade of

> apasiddhantic guru policies, beginning with their claim that Srila

> Prabhupada appointed 11 successor gurus and all the subsequent

> "adjustments." ("No, really--this time we do have it figured out!

> Honest!") Their pattern of ignoring and covering up abuse of women,

> children, and cows is another.

 

I don't think it would be fair to say that the abuse of women and

children that went on in ISKCON were established policies, but rather

that they took place due to the confusing and immature elements that

ruled the times in a fledging spiritual movement trying to take root

in a hostile kali-yuga environment.

 

As for the guru-issue, there has never been a movement like ISKCON in

which guru-tattva has been dissected, analyzed and scrutinized to the

degree it has. The 11 gurus who initially got carried away have either

reformed and continue to serve strongly, or they have fallen down and

gone away. The GBC has shown that they develop, reform and become more

mature devotees. The zonal acharya system, as it was called, was

corrected and reformed by forces within ISKCON - forces loyal and

dedicated to Srila Prabhupada. It was correctly established that

Prabhupada wanted all of his disciples to become gurus and accept

disciples. If we believe that Srila Prabhupada is the authorized

acharya who has come to take Gaura-Nitai's mission to all the fallen

souls in the world, I think we have to accept that in watching and

judging the devotees of ISKCON we have to consider that Krishna and

Srila Prabhupada are directly and continually in charge of what's

going on.

 

The fact that anyone in the west is discussing guru-issues, or any

Krishna conscious issue, is due to the impact of Srila Prabhupada and

ISKCON.

 

> I think the trend toward increased

> bureaucratization runs counter to Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

> And I am convinced that many of ISCKON's problems stem directly from

> it's sytematic vilification of vaishnavas, including, but certainly

> not limited to Sridhar Maharaj, Gour Govinda Maharaj, and Narayan

> Maharaj. These are a couple of my concerns.

 

ISKCON has not systematically vilified vaishnavas, and they have

certainly not vilified the three vaishnavas you mention. Quite the

contrary. What goes on on a personal level between godbrothers - all

the grudges, the bickering and the envy - has in my opinion no

influence on ISKCON's continuation in history. Of course there will be

infighting, politics and power games when the founder-acharya goes

away.

 

In fact ISKCON is the only one of the 'new' religions that has been

able to weather the storm that came after the demise of their founding

fathers. I would like to suggest that when we observe ISKCON and its

devotees we adopt a broader and more historical perspective. We cannot

see what is going on in ISKCON if our vision is clouded by personal

resentments and old grudges.

 

Those devotees who individually vilified and offended other Vaishnavas

have all fallen down and have either accepted reform from Krishna or

they have gone away. We can actually observe how Krishna and Srila

Prabhupada are continually reforming and guiding the devotees of

ISKCON.

 

> This may lead one to think I believe ISKCON i nothing but problems,

> which isn't at all true. Some complained on this forum, I believe

> that ISKCON has no heart. I heard a devotee say the same thing here

> in Hilo today. I think that's way off base. Lord Chaitanya and

> Nityananda are the heart of ISKCON, and many wonderful devotees

> continue to serve Them from within this institution.

 

I would like to suggest that Srila Prabhupada is the heart of ISKCON.

 

> I see devotees

> making advancement and preaching like mad in ISKCON. So there's more

> going on than those (negative) things, of course. However, I believe

> they have compromised ISCKON's effectiveness, and we ignore them at

> our peril.

 

In the grand scheme of things I don't think ISKCON has compromised

anything. Just like in our personal lives we can see that Krishna is

constantly giving guidance, encouragement and punishment, the same

must also be true for the body of ISKCON. But since ISKCON is a

universal body for the spreading of the holy name its development

cannot be seen in the same time-frame as a human life. ISKCON is

designated to last 10,000 years. I have to admit, and no offense

intended to all the honoured vaishnavas present, but I find it so

incredibly narrow minded to think that one can understand what is

really happening in ISKCON, by discussing politics or by referring to

past misgivings, mistakes, abuse etc.

 

Your servant

Jahnu das

[Guest guest]

> Dear devotees,

>

> The following text, by Jahnu Prabhu I rate (silly my rating!!) it the

> best text on COM, so far that I have come across in year 2002. Many might

> have had a quick glance only. I request you (if you can) to go through it

> scrutinizingly. In my humble opinion it is very very important for all

> ISKCONIANS. I earlier commented about it, but forgive me for drawing your

> attention once again.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

>

 

Of course this will sound biased, but who cares? I agree it was a very

good text, and a nice discussion between Babhru prabhu and Jahnu. This kind

of discussion is more indicative of the valuable contributions that can

benefit devotees on this site. Mukunda datta prabhu is another such

contributor. If the conference (AKC) can maintain this, then it's worthwhile

keeping. Otherwise I agree with Madhumati - it should be closed down,

because the offensiveness ruins even the good.

 

Ys,

Braja Sevaki dd

[Guest guest]

On 8 Mar 2002, Braja wrote:

 

> it should be closed down,

> because the offensiveness ruins even the good.

 

Ok, I'am gone. Got enough of it. Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

I am happy you liked it. Thank you for your support and encouragement.

 

Ys, Jahnu das

 

 

 

> The following text, by Jahnu Prabhu I rate (silly my rating!!) it

> the best text on COM, so far that I have come across in year 2002.

> Many might have had a quick glance only. I request you (if you can)

> to go through it scrutinizingly. In my humble opinion it is very

> very important for all ISKCONIANS. I earlier commented about it,

> but forgive me for drawing your attention once again.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

>

> > Sorry for the wise-guy routine. It's more a pattern over many

> > years than any specific problems. They include, however, the

> > parade of apasiddhantic guru policies, beginning with their claim

> > that Srila Prabhupada appointed 11 successor gurus and all the

> > subsequent "adjustments." ("No, really--this time we do have it

> > figured out! Honest!") Their pattern of ignoring and covering up

> > abuse of women, children, and cows is another.

>

> I don't think it would be fair to say that the abuse of women and

> children that went on in ISKCON were established policies, but

> rather that they took place due to the confusing and immature

> elements that ruled the times in a fledging spiritual movement

> trying to take root in a hostile kali-yuga environment.

>

> As for the guru-issue, there has never been a movement like ISKCON

> in which guru-tattva has been dissected, analyzed and scrutinized to

> the degree it has. The 11 gurus who initially got carried away have

> either reformed and continue to serve strongly, or they have fallen

> down and gone away. The GBC has shown that they develop, reform and

> become more mature devotees. The zonal acharya system, as it was

> called, was corrected and reformed by forces within ISKCON - forces

> loyal and dedicated to Srila Prabhupada. It was correctly

> established that Prabhupada wanted all of his disciples to become

> gurus and accept disciples. If we believe that Srila Prabhupada is

> the authorized acharya who has come to take Gaura-Nitai's mission to

> all the fallen souls in the world, I think we have to accept that in

> watching and judging the devotees of ISKCON we have to consider that

> Krishna and Srila Prabhupada are directly and continually in charge

> of what's going on.

>

> The fact that anyone in the west is discussing guru-issues, or any

> Krishna conscious issue, is due to the impact of Srila Prabhupada

> and ISKCON.

>

> > I think the trend toward increased

> > bureaucratization runs counter to Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

> > And I am convinced that many of ISCKON's problems stem directly

> > from it's sytematic vilification of vaishnavas, including, but

> > certainly not limited to Sridhar Maharaj, Gour Govinda Maharaj,

> > and Narayan Maharaj. These are a couple of my concerns.

>

> ISKCON has not systematically vilified vaishnavas, and they have

> certainly not vilified the three vaishnavas you mention. Quite the

> contrary. What goes on on a personal level between godbrothers - all

> the grudges, the bickering and the envy - has in my opinion no

> influence on ISKCON's continuation in history. Of course there will

> be infighting, politics and power games when the founder-acharya

> goes away.

>

> In fact ISKCON is the only one of the 'new' religions that has been

> able to weather the storm that came after the demise of their

> founding fathers. I would like to suggest that when we observe

> ISKCON and its devotees we adopt a broader and more historical

> perspective. We cannot see what is going on in ISKCON if our vision

> is clouded by personal resentments and old grudges.

>

> Those devotees who individually vilified and offended other

> Vaishnavas have all fallen down and have either accepted reform from

> Krishna or they have gone away. We can actually observe how Krishna

> and Srila Prabhupada are continually reforming and guiding the

> devotees of ISKCON.

>

> > This may lead one to think I believe ISKCON i nothing but

> > problems, which isn't at all true. Some complained on this forum,

> > I believe that ISKCON has no heart. I heard a devotee say the same

> > thing here in Hilo today. I think that's way off base. Lord

> > Chaitanya and Nityananda are the heart of ISKCON, and many

> > wonderful devotees continue to serve Them from within this

> > institution.

>

> I would like to suggest that Srila Prabhupada is the heart of

> ISKCON.

>

> > I see devotees

> > making advancement and preaching like mad in ISKCON. So there's

> > more going on than those (negative) things, of course. However, I

> > believe they have compromised ISCKON's effectiveness, and we

> > ignore them at our peril.

>

> In the grand scheme of things I don't think ISKCON has compromised

> anything. Just like in our personal lives we can see that Krishna is

> constantly giving guidance, encouragement and punishment, the same

> must also be true for the body of ISKCON. But since ISKCON is a

> universal body for the spreading of the holy name its development

> cannot be seen in the same time-frame as a human life. ISKCON is

> designated to last 10,000 years. I have to admit, and no offense

> intended to all the honoured vaishnavas present, but I find it so

> incredibly narrow minded to think that one can understand what is

> really happening in ISKCON, by discussing politics or by referring

> to past misgivings, mistakes, abuse etc.

>

> Your servant

> Jahnu das

[Guest guest]

> The 11 gurus who initially got carried away ............

Wow! Quite an assumption here. ALL of the initial 11 got carried away?

Sounds like an all-knowing, all pervasive analysis of the minds of these

same eleven. I’d be inclined to ask myself if the author really carries the

kind of authority and discipline to make such a presumptuous statement.

 

 

> What goes on on a personal level between godbrothers - all

> > the grudges, the bickering and the envy - has in my opinion no

> > influence on ISKCON's continuation in history.

 

Another presumptuous opinion. All the gurus were bearing grudges, bickering

and conducting their relationships with each other in an envious fashion???

I'd be really interested to know how the author reaches the conclusion of

tarring everyone with the same brush.

 

> The following text, by Jahnu Prabhu I rate (silly my rating!!) it

> > the best text on COM, so far that I have come across in year 2002.

 

If this is really the best we have seen on COM so far in 2002 I have serious

doubts for the future. The mere fact that these opinions can go

unchallenged, and are accepted as fact, to the point where we are asked to

read and re-read them, almost to the point of placing this text on an equal

level with shastra, leaves me somewhat in despair.

Ys.

Vidura dasa.

[Guest guest]

i found this text in my "unfinished texts" box and thought of sending it as

it is.

------

 

> The fact that anyone in the west is discussing guru-issues, or any

> Krishna conscious issue, is due to the impact of Srila Prabhupada and

> ISKCON.

 

true, and the strange thing is that some people even try to modify Srila

Prabhupada's explanations on certain issues trying to make it more palatable

to today's third or fourth grade population. Simply ridiculous. if

vaisnava philosophy was so cheap that it can be adjusted according to

depending on every conditioned souls' taste in the name of time, place,

circumstances, then it wouldn't be taking us beyond the material existence.

 

Hare Krishna.

 

ys, bb

[Guest guest]

What ever wisdom that I may have is only due to blessings of elders like

your grace.

 

Seeking your blessings,

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

 

> I can find myself in the words of Bhadra Govindaji.

> Very wise words prabhu! Thank you.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Madhava Dasa

[Guest guest]

Dandavats. Jaya Prabhupada!

 

This is an old email that just resurfaced; sorry for the delay.

 

On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Mahanidhi (das) (S) wrote:

> i.e. the generation of the "fundamentalistis" and "progressive"

> wings that both claim to be the real and faithful representatives

> of the holy scriptures and the founder of the religious movement,

> both fighting for the predominance of their interpretations

> and -- the elimination of the opposing parties.

 

There's nothing wrong with believing one's views to be the real

and faithful representation of the holy scriptures and founder of one's

religious movement; that's just the nature of deep faith. But when

someone wants to proclaim his or her views without also demonstrating how

that's so, as objectively as possible, then it's a problem; and even then,

unless someone is as perfect as Prabhupada suggests in his purport to Gita

5.19, one whose views are logically corroborated by guru/sadhu/sastra

are only that--authoritative views. There's certainly room for many, many

alternative views within this epistemological paradigm, even though those

who cannot accept the paradigm itself, for certain reasons, cannot admit

this.

 

That said, I don't believe Prabhupada's teachings enjoin that

there's a necessity of practically "eliminating" others; that seems more

of an Islamic postulation, and a pretty flaky one too.

 

 

 

> ISKCON does seem to have all the required ingredients to

> develop further in either direction. Personally, I am rather

> inclined to think that the easier path of gliding toward is

> the path of following all the major religious movements in

> the world.

Maybe this is because you're looking at it sociologically rather

than ontologically; the whole liberal/conservative dichotomy itself seems

predicated on this approach too, for what it's worth. Sometimes it is

worthwhile, but only if one is aware of doing it in the first place.

 

 

 

> Here are some of the moments that might enable

> something like that happen (especially in some several hundreds

> of years yet to come):

> -- Srila Prabhupada is already there being promoted as practically

> God Himself. Absolutely infallible and omniscient in every respect...

> The only real saviour of the world in this age.

Ritviks seem to come closest to this, which suggests that they

have retained the mindset of the prophetic faiths which dominate the

environment in which they were socialized--rather than assimilating the

Gaudiya tradition on (and in) its own terms.

 

 

 

> -- The structure of an unquestionable authority system is

> there, with the body of the "ultimate authority" that is never

> to be challenged nor disregarded by anybody. The central place

> of the ultimate authority's ruling is also there, and it is to

> become the biggest and the most spectacular in the whole world

> (hat some "Vaticans" of this world are to become a third-class

> touristic attraction in comparison to).

Those who favor this approach have the backing of Prabhupada's

instruction that we model our institutional structure after that of the

Roman Catholic establishment. Its weakness is that no one seems to

actually follow it!

 

 

 

> -- The guruship principles are already a kind of a hybrid,

> something in between the straight rtvik and the genuine

> guru-disciple principles; an ISKCON guru is an official post

> that got to be approved by the highest body of authority.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's stressing this approach

provides one example of just how radically he embodied the innovative

preaching resolve Babhru Prabhu and others have appreciated. However, I

may have simply misunderstood you here, especially in light of what you

say below.

 

 

 

> formal initiation is there that to connect any prospective

> candidate to Prabhupada who is seen as actually the only real

> saviour of all the members of the institution (the spiritual

> purity and the strength of initiating guru, as well as guru-

> disciple relationship is of a secondary importance)...

According to some, this is more or less the Ramanuja system of

following the "founder-acarya." I don't know if that's really a valid

claim, but at any rate, we might just as well extend the ultimate authority

to it's only possible source, Sri Krsna. That's logical, since all gurus

are at best simply representatives.

 

 

 

> Thus

> bringing in to the picture the certain element of the "priesthood"

> (the latest example of Suhotra Swami as a kind of a "guru on a

> vacations/treatment" simply illustrates this).

I think that's a very good point, but it seems arguable. One

could also argue that the GBC itswelf invited this by curtailing the

degree of worship offered to gurus in the zonal acarya days.

 

 

 

> -- The loyalty (the chief "prostitute" among the words) to the

> ultimate authority and the institution is seen as the measurement

> for the spiritual advancement or "love of Godhead". (Love of

> Godhead can be obtained only through the love of Prabhupada

> and this one can be demonstrated only by cooperating with the

> GBC and this one can be accomplish only by never disregarding

> them on any way what to speak of rejecting their authority.)

This is why I would object to embracing or creating (deliberately

or not) any other mundane conception of one's religion; inevitably, it

will come to this point of institutional religion again, even if that

effect is distributed across a thousand different camps.

 

On the other hand, if we are austere enough to stick to siddhanta

and argue in terms of guru/sadhu/sastra, such institutional structures and

notions will be forced to bend to that superior power--as will our own

anarthas. This is especially so if we also articulate our realizations

with exemplary and generic dharma (especially respect toward others).

 

However, we can never expect to be freed from the abuse of our

enemies until we free ourselves from our internal tyrants, for similar

things created our enemies.

 

 

 

> -- The very revolutionary spirit and the open critical thinking

> being those principles on which the "birth" and the growth

> of ISKCON as the institution has been supported on,

Really?

 

 

 

> become

> condemned and outlawed once the "door-step" has been crossed

> over: Every and each "splinter" individual or group is condemned

> as the demonically influenced, illusioned, bewildered, offensive,

> envious, materialistic, treacherous... down-to--hell heading.

 

It is a logical impossibility that, if X and Y are antithetical,

or even just incompatible, one who accepts X will not reject Y, and

vice-versa. It is NOT a logical necessity that doing so must entail the

mutual condemnation you've alluded to. Inflexible faith doesn't have to

lead to inflexible action, nor to worse. Exclusion isn't animosity.

Sometimes a true antithesis is hard to identify too.

 

 

 

> -- The abuses of children. Women, cows, the weak.

Please don't forget the brahmanas too (Bhagavata 1.8.5):

"In the glorious days, or before the advent of the age of Kali, the

brahmanas, the cows, the women, the children and the old men were properly

given protection.

1. The protection of the brahmanas maintains the institution of varna and

asrama, the most scientific culture for attainment of spiritual life.

2. The protection of cows maintains the most miraculous form of food,

i.e., milk for maintaining the finer tissues of the brain for

understanding higher aims of life.

3. The protection of women maintains the chastity of society, by which we

can get a good generation for peace, tranquillity and progress of life.

4. The protection of children gives the human form of life its best chance

to prepare the way of liberty from material bondage. Such protection of

children begins from the very day of begetting a child by the purificatory

process of garbhadhana-samskara, the beginning of pure life.

5. The protection of the old men gives them a chance to prepare themselves

for better life after death.

This complete outlook is based on factors leading to successful humanity

as against the civilization of polished cats and dogs. The killing of the

above-mentioned innocent creatures is totally forbidden because even by

insulting them one loses ones duration of life. In the age of Kali they

are not properly protected, and therefore the duration of life of the

present generation has shortened considerably."

 

 

 

> And some other points could be mentioned too. But I guess,

> these few above are already too many, I am afraid... And

> ISKCON is only a couple of decades old. I wander how the early

> Christianity of that age looked alike. Certainly not all that

> institutional (or "mundane religious", as some would say) as

> The Roman Church (Vatican) of today, for example.

Risking political correctness, one could venture that, since

ISKCON's earliest members were essentially of the same stock as

the early Christians, or for that matter, comparing the number of Christ's

close disciples who had problems with those who failed Srila Prabhupada,

they may indeed have looked pretty similar to ISKCON.

 

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Had a wonderful weekend: KD's wedding. It was exquisite. I've been off line

most of the past coule years and so just cleaning up my email box and email

list before I send the post about our new baby. Hope all is well, raghu

 

 

Applied.Krishna.Consciousness (AT) pamho (DOT) net

[Applied.Krishna.Consciousness (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of Jahnu (das)

(San Rafael, CA - USA)

Wednesday, May 08, 2002 4:51 AM

WWW: Balaji Prasad (Singapore); Bhadra Balaram (das) JPS (Mayapur - IN);

Applied Krishna Consciousness; Granddisciples (of Srila Prabhupada)

Discussion and Philosophy

 

> I frankly and openly admit, that I am one of those neophites who has

> not been able to *apply* the philosophy properly in my life.

> Inspite of KC being made so simple and easy, due to my bad

> conditioning I am still struggling to apply this most easy and simple

> philosophy.

>

> However, my faith only increases day by day, by seeing those great

> souls who have set a living example for me.

>

> One realisation is, even though I am very very far away from

> perfection, at the same time simultaneously, I have come a long long

> way, away from my previous sinful life.

>

> I simply pray for the dust of the lotus feet of pure devotees which is

> my only hope.

 

I would like to second that. This is exactly how I feel, too.

 

Ys, Jahnu das