Guest guest Posted February 21, 2002 Report Share Posted February 21, 2002 Mukunda datta prabhu wrote: > Yes, personal experience is really the essence of the sastra; as > Goethe said (in Faust): "Gray is all theory; green grows the tree of life > alone." Our sankirtana is the life of transcendental knowledge. Everyone > is always chanting; it's just a question of what, or how well. We simply > cannot erase our ontology. We can only pervert it and try to call it > something else. That would be where fanaticism comes in, perhaps? The elimination of all else to convince one further of one's chosen path. And there are many paths that people choose and fight to call it 'the one'. > > > > famous and possibly the most influential woman in the entire world, yet > > the thing that gave her true joy was this work, which I heard her say > > once was her way of repaying God for the gift of her life. > > That's certainly consistent with Bhagavata 10.22.35: > > "It is the duty of every living being to perform welfare > activities for the benefit of others with his life, wealth, intelligence > and words." That's a nice verse. Prabhupada writes a nice purport too, specifically about real welfare work: "Of course, in human society there are many institutions to help others, but because philanthropists do not know how to help others, their propensity for philanthropy is ineffectual. They do not know the ultimate goal of life (reya €caraŠam), which is to please the Supreme Lord. If all philanthropic and humanitarian activities were directed toward achieving the ultimate goal of life—to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead—they would all be perfect." > > Yes, but it isn't exclusive, because real bhakti by nature subsumes > every other attainment and virtue (cf. Gita 8.28). Krsna consciousness is > *real* welfare. All others are merely ineffectual shadows, which treat > only karmic residues that are themselves already fading away. They chase > smoke instead of fire, effects rather than causes. The *real* actions > have long since moved on, within inner worlds no one else can ever see. > The cheaters will never admit this, because doing so pulls the rug out > from beneath them, where they're swept all their dirt. They won't > understand it, either. No, and will scream 'foul' when challenged. I personally can't see the difficulty in identifying why one is different from the other. But fortunately, everyone doesn't think as I do, otherwise it would be a very boring world (for me at least .. > It's a perpetual process, necessarily renewed every second, in every > discreet act--because time itself doesn't actually even exist, except in > imagination. Krsna reveals us the truth as much as we sincerely work for > it; as He does so, we're presented with the obligation to give more. This > relates to Maya Angelou's statement above. Nice purport to her verse > It's also why the > dharma-sastras are so contradictory; one's adhikara is constantly > changing, while all such prerogatives have to be accomodated and given > Divine direction. This is all ultimately pointless too, except to serve > the whims of "the transcedental autocrat," Krishna. It's mere child's > play, for Him. Divine direction is not the most relishable solution for all, though. Yet as you say, it is all ultimately pointless unless it serves the whims of Krishna. So ultimately, not a blade of grass moves unless He feels it should... > ys Braja Sevaki dd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2002 Report Share Posted February 22, 2002 On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Braja wrote: > Mukunda datta prabhu wrote: > > Yes, personal experience is really the essence of the sastra; as > > Goethe said (in Faust): "Gray is all theory; green grows the tree of life > > alone." Our sankirtana is the life of transcendental knowledge. Everyone > > is always chanting; it's just a question of what, or how well. We simply > > cannot erase our ontology. We can only pervert it and try to call it > > something else. > That would be where fanaticism comes in, perhaps? The elimination of all > else to convince one further of one's chosen path. And there are many paths > that people choose and fight to call it 'the one'. I had a host of atheistic ideologies in mind, since they're all basically just permutations of the same thing--different agents only. The key thing is that our ideology is alive; it has no real value if we remove it amnifestation as a living, conscious, sentient, actor; this is why the bonafide guru is so essential. People essentially opposed to Krsna's principle try to discredit His tangible manifestations. Transcendence in immanence is acintya-bhedabheda. The liberated soul even reveres all things in the universe as Divine manifestations (tava nivasa-jagat-praname), and especially the devotees (10.10.38). So what to speak of the guru or Deity, whose exalted status is already so well established? However, I would agree that atheists can be fanatical too. > > Bhagavata 10.22.35: > "Of course, in human society there are many institutions to help others, but > because philanthropists do not know how to help others, their propensity for > philanthropy is ineffectual. They do not know the ultimate goal of life > (zreya AcaraNam), which is to please the Supreme Lord. If all philanthropic > and humanitarian activities were directed toward achieving the ultimate goal > of life-to please the Supreme Personality of Godhead-they would all be > perfect." That no one can erase anyone's prarabdha-karma is a tough truth to eccept if our karma is relatively bad--even merely as theory. Conversely, if we accept it as truth, everything is immediately galvanized accordingly, and everyone gets pegged. That's pretty tough on the false ego too. But people generally know that truth isn't always pleasant, and we don't really have to approach it on these lower levels of absorption. > > Yes, but it isn't exclusive, because real bhakti by nature subsumes > > every other attainment and virtue (cf. Gita 8.28). Krsna consciousness is > > *real* welfare. All others are merely ineffectual shadows, which treat > > only karmic residues that are themselves already fading away. They chase > > smoke instead of fire, effects rather than causes. The *real* actions > > have long since moved on, within inner worlds no one else can ever see. > > The cheaters will never admit this, because doing so pulls the rug out > > from beneath them, where they're swept all their dirt. They won't > > understand it, either. > No, and will scream 'foul' when challenged. I personally can't see the > difficulty in identifying why one is different from the other. But > fortunately, everyone doesn't think as I do, otherwise it would be a very > boring world (for me at least .. I don't know if I understand you here, but Kavikarnapura says the this world is more attractive to the Lord than Goloka; it's the only place He can find real opposition! As I mentioned earlier, He does like to play. > > It's a perpetual process, necessarily renewed every second, in every > > discreet act--because time itself doesn't actually even exist, except in > > imagination. Krsna reveals us the truth as much as we sincerely work for > > it; as He does so, we're presented with the obligation to give more. This > > relates to Maya Angelou's statement above. > Nice purport to her verse That's just how I read it. In Sanskrit, the word for any intelligent person is "kavi," poet. Significantly, this is also one of the twenty-six virtues of a devotee (Please refer to Srila Prabhupada's lecture on Bhagavatam 1.5.11 at New Vrndavana (6/10/19), in which he expounds on poetry and cites extensively from Sridharasvamin's Bhavartha-dipika commentary on the Bhagavatam.) The poets are said to have a special perception--and most importantly, the ability to communicate rasa. Even in Western tradition, they used to be generally spiritual (if more in the wide sense of the German notion "geistig"), and uplifting too (which hearkens back to the Upanisadic "may our ears hear what is auspicious"). Hence we call this kind of thing "the humanities." George Herbert (1593-1633) wrote something we've been wondering about lately ourselves: My God, what is a heart? Silver, or gold, or precious stone, Or star, or rainbow, or a part Of all these things, or all of them in one? My God, what is a heart, That Thou shouldst it so eye, and woo, Pouring upon it all They art, As if Thou hadst nothing else to do? There are even better examples than this, many more; Babhru Prabhu, if he's still with us, undoubtedly knows some. Sometimes I think there's nothing at all that hasn't already been said long, long ago. > Divine direction is not the most relishable solution for all, though. Yet as > you say, it is all ultimately pointless unless it serves the whims of > Krishna. Actually, I meant that from our conditional perspective, it's all pointless--even though Krsna is doing it! He has no needs, so everything He does is simply whimsical, negotiable, lila. Our poet friend guessed Him right (na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate). That's why we shouldn't get too worried about material limitations; Krsna and His pleasure potency can render all the physical and logical laws elastic. > So ultimately, not a blade of grass moves unless He feels it > should... Yes, this is another tough one to accept sometimes. The good part is that as soon as we just give up and agree to play by HIS rules (anukulyena krsnanusilanam), He treats us really, really nice. :-) Krsna is so kind and humble; in Bhagavata 3.16.7, He says that the only reason His lotus feet are so pure that they immediately wipe out all sins--is that He serves His devotees! That's all He does, all day long. That's His fancy, His whim. Everything else, His expansions or servants arrange. Similarly, here's another evidence of this (Bhagavata 6.16.17): "Citraketu said: O unconquerable Lord, although You cannot be conquered by anyone, You are certainly conquered by devotees who have control of the mind and senses. They can keep You under their control because You are causelessly merciful to devotees who desire no material profit from You. Indeed, You give Yourself to them, and because of this You also have full control over Your devotees." Srila Prabhupada's purport to this verse is also very deep. MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2002 Report Share Posted February 22, 2002 At 10:42 AM 2/22/02 -0800, M. Tandy wrote: > In Sanskrit, the word for any intelligent person is "kavi," poet. >Significantly, this is also one of the twenty-six virtues of a devotee >(Please refer to Srila Prabhupada's lecture on Bhagavatam 1.5.11 at New >Vrndavana (6/10/19), in which he expounds on poetry and cites extensively >from Sridharasvamin's Bhavartha-dipika commentary on the Bhagavatam.) >The poets are said to have a special perception--and most importantly, >the ability to communicate rasa. Even in Western tradition, they used to >be generally spiritual (if more in the wide sense of the German notion >"geistig"), and uplifting too (which hearkens back to the Upanisadic "may >our ears hear what is auspicious"). Hence we call this kind of thing "the >humanities." George Herbert (1593-1633) wrote something we've been wondering >about lately ourselves: > > My God, what is a heart? > Silver, or gold, or precious stone, > Or star, or rainbow, or a part > Of all these things, or all of them in one? > > My God, what is a heart, > That Thou shouldst it so eye, and woo, > Pouring upon it all They art, > As if Thou hadst nothing else to do? > >There are even better examples than this, many more; Babhru Prabhu, if >he's still with us, undoubtedly knows some. Sometimes I think there's >nothing at all that hasn't already been said long, long ago. Yes, there's lots of good stuff. Some of Shakespeare's sonnets, seen through a Krishna-conscious eye, are pretty amazing. Donne's, too. And a friend recently turned me on to some poetry by Hafiz, a 13th (?) century Sufi poet. Maybe I'll share some later. In Sanskrit poetics, rasa is at the heart. I had a pretty cool book when I was in California and want to get some more. and some of the most heartbreakingly beautiful poetry is of course Rupa Gosvamin's--for assonance, rhythm, and rhyme, imagery, and rasa. Yikes! Babhru > > Divine direction is not the most relishable solution for all, though. > Yet as > > you say, it is all ultimately pointless unless it serves the whims of > > Krishna. > > Actually, I meant that from our conditional perspective, it's all >pointless--even though Krsna is doing it! He has no needs, so everything >He does is simply whimsical, negotiable, lila. Our poet friend guessed >Him right (na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate). That's why we shouldn't >get too worried about material limitations; Krsna and His pleasure potency >can render all the physical and logical laws elastic. > > > > > So ultimately, not a blade of grass moves unless He feels it > > should... > > Yes, this is another tough one to accept sometimes. The good part >is that as soon as we just give up and agree to play by HIS rules (anukulyena >krsnanusilanam), He treats us really, really nice. :-) > > Krsna is so kind and humble; in Bhagavata 3.16.7, He says that the >only reason His lotus feet are so pure that they immediately wipe out all >sins--is that He serves His devotees! That's all He does, all day long. >That's His fancy, His whim. Everything else, His expansions or servants >arrange. Similarly, here's another evidence of this (Bhagavata 6.16.17): > >"Citraketu said: O unconquerable Lord, although You cannot be conquered by >anyone, You are certainly conquered by devotees who have control of the >mind and senses. They can keep You under their control because You are >causelessly merciful to devotees who desire no material profit from You. >Indeed, You give Yourself to them, and because of this You also have full >control over Your devotees." > >Srila Prabhupada's purport to this verse is also very deep. > > MDd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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