TD (was--Who is being villified?)

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Jahnu (das) (San Rafael, CA - USA) wrote:

> I find it sad that an atmosphere has been created on COM in

> which you can recklessly draw Srila Prabhupada's teachings into doubt

> and publicly ridicule him without anyone being able to say anything

> against it. If you speak up against it, you are intimidated into a

> position where you have to defend yourself against accusations that

> you don't care for the protection of the children in ISKCON.

 

I agree that this is a real problem. Since we seem to be at a

juncture now, maybe we could devote this list to discussing it instead

of the GBC or child abuse. It's not by any means less important than

either of those two topics. It's probably even more important than both

combined, if we're interested in *acting* as pure Vaisnavas.

 

 

 

> The same person who moderates Topical Discussion is the one who goes

> around on COM trying to whip up frenzies of child-abuse in different

> conferences. And anyone who doesn't join the crusade, what to speak of

> if you dare point out some philosophical discrepencies, is deemed

> heartless and without compassion.

> In Topical Discussions blatant disregard and ridicule of Srila

> Prabhupada is going on. Nobody seems to mind that.

 

That's probably because no is allowed to question it there; read

the TD conference rules. Those who question it (even politely and with

all reference to Srila Prabhupada's books) have been deemed to be merely

"challenging the conference rules" and thus treated as troublemakers--if

they're allowed to stay on TD at all. That's a very serious problem.

 

 

 

> If I point it out it is considered impolite because, gee, it could hurt

> someone's feelings.

I was thrown off of the TD list after I suggested that Buddhism

exists essentially to accomodate the envy of those who would adopt such a

godless ideology. Although this removal implied I had transgressed TD

conference rules, no such specific "offense" was explained to me. As was

the case with innumerable other instances in which I questioned why any

follower of Srila Prabhupada would question his status and teachings as

much as is usual on TD (cf., the poem you cite below), I assume my

suggestion was *interpreted* as some sort of "offence." This behavior of

the moderators needs to be addressed responsibly, with reference to our

books. I cannot imagine why any sincere devotee would avoid doing so.

In my experience, such selective interpretation by TD moderators was not

even consistent, what to speak of corroborated by standard Vaisnava

authorities. The TD moderatores ignored several of my invitations to

discuss this serious and consequential problem; such unusual neglect is

therefore suspicious in the extreme, especially if viewed in light of TD's

generally dubious reputation.

 

 

 

> A person who allows this little poem in a conference she is supposed

> to moderate without any admonition or apology, is in my opinion not

> fit to work with Krishna's children:

>

> "A guru once swam to the West,

> so convinced he knew what was best.

> He was so sure he was so pure

> the whole world he wanted to cure

> with followers wicked and cruel

> in his experimental school."

> (Ekanatha das HKS)

>

> The thing is that there are forces out to destroy and undermine ISKCON

> and Srila Prabhupada's version, and they use popular hot topics like

> child-abuse to create tension and strife in general but in particular

> they use these tactics to discredit Srila Prabhupada.

 

Your statement may be seen as a conspiracy theory, but at the very

least, it would only be responsible of those accused of accomodating and/or

encouraging such questionable "poetry" to openly discuss the valid concerns

many others (including their seniors) have expressed about them. Again, I

find it very telling that at least within my experience, they never have.

It isn't my intention to discredit anyone, but if this issue is as serious

as it looks to me, there's hardly a need for that anyway.

 

 

 

> I find it funny

> that people get very disturbed over my rudeness, but they don't seem

> to be disturbed by the reason I am so rude, namely that Srila

> Prabhupada and ISKCON are being dismissed and ridiculed by a tight

> little clique of people here.

 

I've observed that many other devotees who reacted similarly on

TD were dismissed. I don't think there's really much reason to be

surprised if people freak out on you after you attack their guru and his

teachings, but still, objection has to be expressed as politely as

possible (a la Gita 17.15), so I also sympathise with your detractors in

that regard.

 

Perhaps those who have made such outrageous statements as

the above "poem" could comment on why they felt this wasn't at least as

offensive to Prabhupada's followers than your caustic remarks were here;

I'm pretty sure that their explanation would be as telling as the silent

toleration and selective interpretations of TD moderators I mentioned

above.

 

Since there is no conference rule prohibiting anyone here from

asking about such crucial deviations as you and others vehemently oppose

regarding TD, I would like to invite Madhu to explain this (and this only,

please) right now.

 

 

 

> I think that should be looked more into. One thing which is wonderful

> about the association of devotees is that you can speak about and

> analyze the world in a way which is real, you don't have to feel

> intimidated by the political correctness and superficiality that rule

> the non-devotees.

Within my experience, this wasn't so on TD, which is why I was

frankly astonished to see it at first, and thus objected to it myself too.

For those who don't know, TD practically embraces various nonVaisnava

epistemologies, for reasons that to my knowledge have never been explained

(not even by private email, despite my repeatedly inviting that too) and

are apparently kept as guarded secrets of some sort.

 

 

 

> At least amongst devotees we should be able to speak our minds without

> having to be intimidated by the standards of the modern coca-cola

> culture, in which you have to cringe at the philosophy or Srila

> Prabhupada's teachings, and be very careful about what you say,

> because someone might have their little feelings hurt. I became a

> devotee to escape the present sick culture, and now I find myself

> again judged by by its values and thought-patterns.

 

Your concerns are valid, you certainly deserve to express them,

and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't discuss them here and now. I

would only ask that we all do so politely.

 

It seems to me that most of the opposition you and Braja have

received stems from posts that were, in my opinion as well, pretty rude.

However, again, if you spoke out of anger about the abovementioned spiritual

abuse that goes in in some circles now, it isn't at all difficult to see

why you're angry, for those who care to see at all.

 

MDd